The collected works of hamei - Page 62

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/1 ... -vs-apple/

ClassicHasClass wrote: That creepy doll is not cute.

My name is talking tina and I don't like you !

Time to put a caboose on this thread ... maybe can help anyone coming along later who wants this.

Zo, xpdf is a necessity if you want to use Irix these days. No argument, Acroread 3 is fast, nice, clean, but there are too many pdf's which won't open with Acroread nowadays. And all the other pdf readers have died an ignominious death. Xpdf is still here, still maintained, still runs Motif with the SGI style, etc etc.

New version out recently, 3.04 There's a long list of changes and many seem worthwhile :

http://foolabs.com/xpdf/CHANGES

People here have built this thing before (there's versions in nekoware) but since 3.03 there has been this linking problem. With a very simple environment


xpdf refuses to link. At least for me, which isn't saying much, but there's maybe other novices out there.

SGI has the Standard Template Library. Did some research, in fact, STL was created by HP and adopted by SGI, who collaborated with HP later on on this. So SGI / Irix has the real STL. It's also still available for download.

http://www.sgi.com/tech/stl/download.html

Apparently the gnu std++ pseudo-STL has some problems involving nm. I found several references to this problem and, coincidentally, a longish thread explaining why the function (std::sort) Mr Noonan used in xpdf is no good But no real explanation of how to fix it, alas.

Previous hackysack solution was to run ./configure, then edit aconf.h to #undef the HAVE_STD_SORT directive. At 3.03 this worked for me but for some reason this time did not. The failures were probaly due to another library which I built without support for the kitchen sink, aka cups or some other fossy horseshit. Oh wait ! you don't want three gigabytes of crap to support ancient Tibetan script in your error messages ? What's wrong with youse, anyway !?

Anyway, looking back to another thread and thanks beaucoup to Mr Jimmer and Mr Canavan, I came across this environment :

Woo-hoo ! She'sa worka ! Built nicely even with the apparently not-good std::sort function.

Zo II, I'll go mess with this some more but if some person in the distant future has this linker problem, env 2 should make it work.

Any explanations of why would be appreciated, at least by me.

(Oh. Originally I put the freetype includes in the configure line, e.g. ./configure --prefix=/usr/nekoware --with-freetype=/usr/nekoware/include/freetype2 That seemed to work fine, freetype was found and included but that's another possibility to investigate for errors.)

In conclusion, ladies and germs, xpdf 3.04 seems okay. It's probably worth doing, since according to the release notes there were quite a few things fixed and improved. Yet it's no fatter and has no new worthless features and no new toolkit and the controls are all still in the same place and work the same way. No relearning how to do the same thing, just improved performance, Yay !!

The Snake slithered his last comeback but true to character, he didn't tell anybody

"Great plan, John ! ...

... but that's not what I'm gonna do"

The last time a group of live human beings was seen in professional sports (in the US, at least) ..

If you read this, you will laugh so hard you pee your pants ...

http://www.pacifict.com/story/

Oskar45 wrote: Gen 3:1

Stabler and fundamentalist christianity, the two poles of existence

There was nothing like being a raiders fan in those days, and has been nothing like it since ... "Oh good, we're ten points down and two minutes to play. We won ! We won !" 99% of the time, we had.

He'd take time in the middle of a double overtime playoff game to gaze into the stands, say, "Fans sure are getting their money's worth today, eh John ?"

In this day of plastic fantastic athaletes, Kenny was real to the very marrow of his bones ...

jimmer wrote: Compared to Baseball, Croquet is so much better as a game it's not even a contest

Fixed that for you

There is one interesting aspect to baseball, though - the mental contest between the batter and pitcher. I don't believe cricket players throw the ball at 98 mph ?

bunnspecial wrote: I've been handed a project ...
I'd appreciate any advice on where to go next.

If you are near anyone on nekochan who has an Octane or O2, it would take about five minutes to pop the disk into a running SGI box and hack the password file ... that'd be the easiest.

Do you ever come to China ?

diegel wrote: Here is a list of packages:

Code: Select all

...
neko_zlib-1.2.8.tardist


Just out of curiosity ... did you build the libz un-optimized ? It builds both ways, but then I saw the note on the original version in nekoware that -03 breaks some png's. I didn't have any to test so chickened out and went no-0 but -03 might be nice if that is no longer a problem ?

thank you, btw ...

edit: okay le, extracted the release notes, got the info, cool, thanks.

On to the next hill to climb ....

While I'm here, is there a reason we are at libpng 1.2 when it's currently up to 1.6 ? Not complaining, just wondering ....

I had a PDP-11 once ... used to have to re-enter the bootloader by the toggle switches. Frequently. And then the graphics (VDT, video display terminal) would quit. Called the tech guy at Sundstrand, nice guy. He said, "Common problem. On the left side of the cabinet, about a foot back from the front and about six inches off the ground, give it a good kick."

So I did. And it worked.I really did not like that computer.

"After five years, with the Fifth-Generation project a complete failure, it appeared that prolog was merely a French plot to retard the advance of Japanese technology."

An interesting page with some entertaining remarks ... so much for Lisp

http://www.leptonica.com/design-principles.html

zagnut wrote: [ In all honesty, IRIX serves me no real purpose.

If Irix serves you no purpose, then give it to the Goodwill 'cuz Loonix will not do even 10% of what Irix does on that hardware. Basically, you can run a terminal on it, and that's all.

Vladio wrote: Wow, 40 grand! Thanks for the info!

If you actually paid that, people would walk up to you on the street and give you a great big lick, cuz you had "SUCKER !!" printed in ten-inch letters on your forehead.

Mr Diegel Sir -

I assume that you stopped libpng at 1.2.52 because at 1.2.53 it fails the 'make check' step ?

I just discovered through process of elimination that libpng 1.4.16 makes (with your edit of libtool) and passes the gmake check step.

Installed it, so far no disasters. ymmv.


At 1.6.17 the effing thing kacks on AWK.

There is probably some place in the middle that still works. Research is ongoing.

Edit : okay, the break point is at 1.5.0 Here's what I find :



I'm looking at beta 33 especially becasue that seems related to the actual error I get ?

Also, do you think the beta 43 change affects us ?

btw, herr diegel - how come we are un-versioning the libraries ? What effect does that have ?

josehill wrote: By 2015 standards, sure, but by the standards of its time, IRIX was an outstanding server OS.

If he's got a time machine, I got first dibs

Otherwise, we now live in 2015, old man

foetz wrote:

calvin wrote: nor is it optimized for server workloads and applications.

could you be a bit more specific?
how are server workloads and sever applications defined? and is that not completely dependent on each case?

You do not want me to go dig out an email I once got from the guy running Hubble's storage on SGI He had plenty of very negative things to say about both the product and the people.

My own experience with both a Fuel and an O350 has been quite negative as well. The desktop and the applications are great, but I wouldn't depend on an SGI to watch the paint dry.

They went broke for a reason It's easy to get caught up in liking them because at one time they were good, but that time was looong ago. And short.

It's still way better than Loonix tho

Maybe I do not understand libraries I thought that a library / shared object / dll was a small program that did a prescribed thing, like a black box - put xyz in, get lmnop out. Maybe you put in a Swahili word, can expect to receive a Tagalog word out the other end.

Within major versions they are supposed to be the same . If you have a library swahili-tagalog 1.1, and come out with an improved version 1.1a then it should do exactly the same thing but maybe with better spelling. So you should be able to replace 1.1 with 1.1a directly, is that not correct ?

Then if the people making this library make some major changes, then they name it 1.2 and any program using the library will have to be re-jiggered and rebuilt to use the new inputs and outputs. That makes sense.

But as far as I can see, within a major version, there is no reason for all this 1.1a, 1.1b, 1.1c, 1.1-2015-13a and so on crap. Why do we have all this junk ? Why does not a new and improved version of 1.1 just overwrite the old one ?

I can see 'why not' for a developer but for a user, this seems to just create excessive complexity. BRM thought that excessive complexity was fine as long as each part was equal to the task, but they proved themselves wrong. Several times.

I ask this because diegel's latest dist of libpng 1.2.52 mentions that he blanks out the versions_type in libtool to build the library. My first question was, why ? But the second question is now, why not ? Why not all the time ? Why do I even have applications looking for libfoozis.so.1.3.4.12.006a.19 ? Oh noes ! You only have libfoozis.so.1.3.4.12.006a.123f ! We can't use that !

This is wrong. Why not go into libtool for every library and set version_type to "none" ?

foetz wrote:

hamei wrote: Why not go into libtool for every library and set version_type to "none" ?

because that'd break everything that depends on or wants such a version

But why does anything want such a "version" ?

Where is my understanding off ?

Between major versions, agreed. They are different. But minor versions are supposed to be the same. Is it the case that these minor-versions checks are entirely to enable the diarrhea model of programming ? Release early, release often, release shit ? Because logic says, if libfoo-1 does xyz then all versions of libfoo-1 should do the same xyz. If they don't, then they should become libfoo-2. And if they don't work, they never should have existed in the first place and you definitely don't want them on your computer.

Therefore, minor version checks should not exist ... ??

Actually tho, I think calvin is mistaken. If anything, Irix is far too server-oriented. It's only a good desktop in comparison to the other awful desktops out there.

Unix does not pre-empt threads out of the kernel, Unix is far too interested in saving cpu cycles over maintaining responsiveness, the entire user-group-other thing is total bullshit for a desktop, Unix in general makes a poor desktop. And Irix is Unix. They just did a nice job with 4Dwm. And the applications are good.

Shows you how pitiful personal computing has become, kinda

foetz wrote: well, different versions are different. if a program uses a feature that only came with a specific version (or higher usually) then it needs to check for it

To my (somewhat) Germanic mind, this is bullshit.

Design the effing library to do a particular thing. Make it do that. Sure, as you find errors, fix them. Change minor version numbers to reflect that. But the library should do what it says it does.

If you want to add "features" to make it into something else, then give it a different version. A real version, not some incrementing mess of crap that's bound to cause chaos. Calling a giraffe a "horse ver 2.32" is stupid. A horse is a horse and a giraffe is a giraffe.

Mr Diegel Sir, how come you repressed the versioning in libpng ? I'm sure you had a reason ...

GL1zdA wrote: That's how it supposed to work. But in real world it simply doesn't. Even minor changes break programs, because for programmers will depend on the erroneous behavior. Microsoft solved it via Side-by-side assemblies .

What would happen if the people supplying the dll's in question said, "This is the guaranteed behavior. If you depend on erroneous behavior, you are on your own and we arn't going to fix it. You can face the wrath of your customers alone when your software breaks, because we fully intend to tell them why the program broke."

And then stuck to their guns ...

Standards are good, if they are enforced, maybe ?

jimmer wrote: Letterman?

Yeah, you know, you get the jacket and the ducktail and give your class ring to the girl ... then when she gets pregnant in the dropdown seat of the Rambler at the drive-in, her dad gets the shotgun and you get married.

jimmer wrote: Time to grab a beer and read this ...

This was pretty much my understanding ... you are not helping my mood :

"In computer science, a library is a collection of implementations of behavior, written in terms of a language, that has a well-defined interface by which the behavior is invoked . This means that as long as a higher level program uses a library to make system calls, it does not need to be re-written to implement those system calls over and over again ."

"Since shared libraries on most systems do not change often ..."


Seems like a lot of these boys could use a little discipline ...

diegel wrote:

hamei wrote: btw, herr diegel - how come we are un-versioning the libraries ? What effect does that have ?

This was not my idea, it had been done in the current libpng package also.

Hmm. Thank you for the info .. more research required then

If this cause any problem, we have the problem already.

The major problem I've had with common dependencies is libjpeg. The original jpeg people seem to have gone off the deep end, while jpeg-turbo is supposed to be a drop-in. Maybe all the older versions hanging around have made trouble. Other than that, most of the basic depends have been okay.

Did you try png 1.4.16 ? Working well here. I rebuilt graphics magick to use it, works fine. Ran all the tests a-okay. A couple other apps, too. Hoping that stupid options.awk script is the only problem between us and 1.6.17 ...

A clean-out of the libs directory is in process ... this no-version thing seems attractive. Let's see what happens

If I can't build a package with maximum optimization with MipsPro I used to gcc.

I'm wondering what the actual problem is with libz ... That's a very foundational library.

Keep in mind that a Facit 4070 tape punch was $4,000 in 1975. No 50% discounts, either. And an IBM Selectric was $1500. That was real money, too. A Sportster was $1200 and a new Ford van was under $3000. A brand new loaded 1978 Fiesta was $3750. My dumb (3.4 mhz) Vectra (no suffix, the original one) was $4600. Yet a nice house was about $50,000. A few years earlier (1965) a very nice house was $24,000.

You can't really compare olden dayes prices with anything. It's meaningless. The economy was structured entirely differently.

If you want to look at this with a jaundiced eye, the banksters have manipulated things so that you will never own anything except cheap junk that wears out in five years (and needs replacing, again feeding into their pockets.) The important things, those they own forever and you just get to make payments. For your entire life. They had a revolt about this in 1380. At least the peasants were realists.

vishnu wrote: ... they were saying that the entire US stock market in 1980 was worth something like 1 trillion dollars, and today it's worth something like 60 trillion ...

I wonder what that is worth in real Things of Value ? Even the "That's $ 19.95 in 1970 dollars" (Notice they never do it in that direction ?) doesn't really tell you anything. The dollars are all distributed differently now.

The exact same 1906 house with the rotty post and pier foundation over the creek that floods - the exact same house we were paying $50,000 for - sold a few years ago for $700,000.

At the time, I made $5 an hour. This was a plain old middle-class job, not highly-educated techie stem wonderfulness. So if a rising tide lifts all boats, why aren't twenty year old kids earning $70 an hour to start ? That would be a salary of ... oh, $582,000 a year ?

Something is rotten in the state of danemark

kraut wrote: ... the tardist from canavan ... i installed exactly the versions mentioned in the first post by Martin Steen.

My guess is, the tardist from canavan was created with a newer version of sdl than what Martin Steen used. So even if it would probably work with the older sdl, the tardist is expecting the newer version and swmgr won't let you install.

You could try "rules override" but I'd try the newest sdl first. It should just update over the top of the older one. I don't remember running into any problems with sdl upgrades, so should be safe.

warning : I don't have any of that installed at the moment to check. This is semi-educated conjecture.

Canavan's rdesktop is great, solved my browser problem entirely. However, there's a new one ! Ooh ! Ooh ! Version lust ! Whoopee ! After all these years I'm still an idiot ...

To build, extract canavan's patches from the 1.7.1 tardist. Apply. Then I just configure --prefix=/usr/nekoware and ditched the libiconv and ipv6 directives. Your needs may be different. As the build progresses, it will bitch about "You don't have KitchenSink 3.1 ! Consider adding it or configure --without-kitchensink". I chose the latter, about five times.

Except for that, it builds fine up to


thanks to instructions from foetz, changed to


And she'sa builda. If you can't be smart, have smart friends. Thank you very much, Mr Foetz.

So far working good. In fact, I think it looks better via rdp than it does on the windders machine. Posting this from an Octane via Light running on a Win2003 box, secretly behind the Assist's back. If she ever figures out I'm stealing cycles, I'll be singing tenor in the Norman Luboff Choir.

But it works really good. Still some glitches but compared to fighting gtk2, what a relief.


Except I'm still running the flop. I said I'm an idiot ... anyone look in the about:config window recently ? Anybody want to help me storm their castle with lit torches ? Those people should be drawn and quartered. Maybe I should use Internet Exploder.

Oh Christ. What did I just say ?

Doesn't Mackletosh have X ? I thought it was yeeewnix !! ?

foetz wrote: glad it worked

Thanks again, really. And this (rdesktop) is the best answer I've come across for browsing on Irix. It's as fast as local browsing on Windows and looks better, too

In the long run, it's ridiculous that there are no functional browsers except for the newest latest Windows/Loonix/Mackletosh horseshit. The web has been destroyed by commercial interests who only care about how much advertising garbage they can jam down our throats and how much data they can get back, to further jam more crap down our throats. Even the so-called kermyooonity sites like sourceforge have turned to crap. It's quite possible that the web will truly become the Home Shopping Channel with an absolute value of zero within a couple more years.

But if not, it's beyond reason that computers capable of simulating nuclear explosions can't drive a responsive web browser. There is something totally wrong about this situation.

guardian452 wrote: As an optional download. I fire up X once every few weeks... in a window... only when I *really* have to.

Okay le, sorry for the misdirection. It appears from the poorly-written crap at Wikipedia that Apple does not use X at all. All their blather about pdf rather than postscript is just misdirection. Display Postscript is not a windowing system. X is. NextStep apparently wrote wrappers and extensions for display postscript to use it as a windowing system as well as a display driver. SGI did not. I could not see how you could use PDF as a windowing system.

And apparently they don't. At least as far as I can tell from the crappy writeup, quartz is much more than display pdf. It is also the windowing system. The display pdf thingy is a distraction.

So no X I didn't see anything similar to rdp, either.

That's what I get for following the 'OS X is Unix !' breadcrumb trail to the old witch'es house in the forest

GL1zdA wrote: And in the end the providers of the library will suffer. Imagine a client, whose program works on your OS with your library version A. You are providing the upgrade, which upgrades the library to version B. Now the clients program breaks, because you modified some of the libraries undocumented behavior. Who do you think will be blamed?

I disagree, and perhaps this illustrates a difference between people of the past and tomorrow's young whippersnappers.

In the early nineteenth century there were a gazillion railroads with a gazillion track gauges. This obviously impeded interaction between railroads, so they got together and developed a standard . Now any railcar could go on any railroad (with the exception of some isolated narrow gauge lines.) If a car builder sold a boxcar with a non-standard wheel width, the railroad did not "get the blame." If any company had been stupid enough to provide non-standard trucks, that company would have been quickly bankrupted by pissed-off customers. Not the railroad, which was adhering to the standards. The company which insisted on doing something in a non-compliant way.

What would happen if I started selling blenders that ran on 93 volts, 35 hz ac ? "Well, once upon a time in Bumfuck, Idaho, the electricity used that voltage and frequency ..." Yeah right. Good luck with that, Bunky.

What is the point of standards (standard practices, standard utiltities, standard languages, standard libraries) if people are free to ignore them ? Hell, we may as well re-invent the wheel three times a week ... which, come to think of it, is pretty much what Loonix does. Seems like people will put up with any old shit in software.

Devolution. The people of 1800 were smarter than the people of 2015

yetanother**ixuser wrote:

commodorejohn wrote: Hell, it's basically Lennart Poettering's entire reason for existing...

He-who-must-not-be-named

Jesus. I didn't know anything about all this, did ten minutes' research.

Not sure what to say .... All of them ..... is this what the world is like now ? These people are using up perfectly good oxygen.

uunix wrote: I may fancy popping OS/2 4 on it, if I can find he disks.

I think you will be happier with Warp 3 Connect. Blue Spine (with Winos 2, head down to the bowery and you could jack it up to Winos 3 or 4, maybe Has everything you need, nfs and tcpip and smb and all that.

3 and 4 are almost identical. 4 has voice type, which would probably work on a new fast cpu but was way too much work for a Pennytum. 4 also has that crappy pseudo-3d interface which is (to me) ugly. Worse, they moved some stuff around in the lower levels of the system so that 3 is "snappier" than 4. This wouldn't matter if you were running on something new but on elderly slow processors, it counts.

You can stuff almost all of the parts of 4 you might want into 3, if you insist. The only things that won't work on the 3 kernel are some of the latest goofy stuff, like PE-to-LX and the fossy type things some people got into. You can install emx or mxe or whatever it was called. That will give you a gcc-driven XFree/86 subsystem that will talk almost-happily (SGI bitches about missing extensions) to your SGI kompewters. For compilers, there's also Watcom. That should make the Canadians happy

The VDM's (virtual dos machine) are excellent, they work great and are advanced enough to where you can install any DOS you want or even CP/M or other weirdass primitive x86 systems. People have done Xenix.

You probably could have even installed Windows 95 but our good buddies at Mickeysoft purposely put a block of memory right where OS/2 could not use it. You know that blob of system-reserved memory at 512k ? The only reason it's there is to put a roadblock in the way of OS/2 running Win95 apps. IBM could have fixed that - they are smarter than Mickey ever will be - but right about then, IBM lost more money in one quarter than any other company ever had. Ever. Hey, we gotta pay them CEO's the big bucks, 'cuz they have the big responsibilities and create big wealth, eh ? Americans are so stupid.

And oh yeah, watch out for multi-booting Windows 2000. Mickey also "accidentally" wiped out any OS/2 partitions if you install W-2000 on your existing boot manager OS/2 box. Thank you so much, Bill. Hope you rot in hell.

Mickey was scared to death of OS/2, 'cuz OS/2 was a real operating system instead of a joke, like the crap they were selling.

The specs seem fine? I can't recall what was good in those days, OS/2 4 recommends about 16MB of RAM

Yeah, I don't think I ever had 16 mb of ram. My last primitive OS/2 desktop was a very early Z-Pro with dual Pentium Pros. Everything was fine and snappy except for video. Video would drop a lot of frames and be glitchy. Overclocked the PPro's to 260 and they broke up a lot, backed down to 240 and it was much better. Then upgraded to two Overdrives (basically P6 @ 333 mhz) and the thing was perfect. Even video worked well. That's all the computer anyone needs

Question, The Colorado drive is IDE, but the BIOS is complaining it's not ATAPI compatible.

First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyer ... no, wrong script. First thing you do after installation is ditch the factory IBM IDE driver and replace it with Danis506. Smart lady. She took the IBM Device Driver Kit and developed a better IDE driver with MUCH more capabiliities.

Oh wait, you have to get past the BIOS first . Oh-oh, chicken-egg BIOS update ?

Here, you need this :

Http://hobbes.nmsu.edu

Everything you could ask for. Well, no CAD. There isn't any. But everything else, OS/2 gots it.

Also look for EDM/2. Tons and tons of good programming stuff.

The thing that's going to piss you off is the SIQ. Badly-written programs lock you out of the desktop. The system is still running but you can't get to it. The short-term solution is to telnet in, kill the desktop and restart it. The long term solution is, whenever you come across one of these poorly-written programs, ditch it. That was going to be the next fix in OS/2-land but Akers drove the company off a cliff about then, so that was all she wrote for major changes.

AND IT HAS A WINDOWS 'ME' BADGE ON THE FRONT!!!!

OMG ! That's like so kewl, d00d !

eudatux23 wrote: Would it be possible to port this to IRIX?

Like Bobby said, "Whitey ain't never gonna help us. We gots to do it ourselves."

There's a gcc in nekoware .....

guardian452 wrote: Ignore that OS/2 crap; dos 6.2 does everything for everybody

Everything after 3.3 was really bloated

duck wrote: You could've just linked them and saved neko some drive space.

Oh, duck

guardian452 wrote: You say that like it is a bad thing?? X is universally hated, why would I want to use it?

Because it works ?

VNC is lightweight and simple.

But doesn't work

It's little more than just a video stream. My issue is with getting the graphics card to work without a monitor plugged in. Without it, even just scrolling through a web page is a little choppy.

With X, this is not a problem. I used to do it all the time. The O300 didn't even have graphics but no such hassles ...

Yeah, everybody may hate X but ... well ... it works. That's worth something.

RDP or something like it would be nice, but I don't think it exists on mac, either.

Yeah, I couldn't find anything like that either. Classy should have a better idear ?

I see you've taken up sailing ? If you can, grab something little like a Mirror dinghy. More fun than a barrel of monkeys

jimmer wrote: Well, now I guess you understand the context of my rant at viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16727998 a little better...

Yeah I was laughing before just because of my grief with gtk2 et al but I never thought that the cancer had spread to the entire Loonix organism. Took ten minutes at lunch to casually search Mr Pottering, holy shee-it. Pages and pages and pages of childish whining, bitching, and pointless trivial squabbling. I don't think I saw more than one or two remarks about the actual merits of systemd.

It's as if the software is now merely an excuse to act like three year olds.

I've never used systemd and never will, cuz I'm never gonna use Loonix. Ever. But smf works well on Solaris. Probably a lot of the bitching is because Mr Pottering's work is shit.

Personally, I think they are all barking up the wrong tree. IBM had it right in 1990. Server systems have one set of requirements, clients another. So split the operating system accordingly. Client Loonix, Server Loonix. Then everyone can get what they want/need without pissing off the other group of users.

But these guys - almost all of them - would rather bicker about "the license ! ooh, the license !" and multitudes of other extraneous crap, than actually solve the problem.

It's appalling. Even worse than I ever imagined.