The collected works of Alver - Page 2

If you come pick it up, you can have my v880 for 100EUR :) dunno what a trip across the channel would cost you but I doubt it'll be that much. 8 way 900MHz, 16GB ram, 10 x ethernet, 3 x fiber. Single disk due to sensitive data so original disks destroyed.

Oh, and 120 kgs or so :D just so you know. It seems to turn people off. :D

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jpstewart wrote: The FireGL X1 is definitely mentioned in some of HP's docs for the C8000


Ah, funny... the internal HP "quickspecs" application mentions only T2 and X3. Maybe the support for that card was removed at some point :) regardless, if it's mentioned there, it should work.
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gkl wrote:
Alver wrote:
Welcome to the C8000 club. Quick hint: pkgsrc on HPUX 11.11 doesn't run too bad.


I'll have to give it a try. So far I've been able to find all the software I need precompiled, although one visualization package I use for work (VMD) crashes out if I try to run it with OpenGL support. Compiling it from source did not look fun, but I believe there is a pkgsrc for it.


Can't find it, but perhaps it's known under a different name (pkgsrc sometimes places packages under a slightly changed name to avoid collisions with other packages). If you want to try pkgsrc on UX: http://vanalboom.org/node/17 :)

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jpstewart wrote:
D-EJ915 wrote:
jpanchal wrote:
I have a J6750, and the new HP-UX patching policy is a pain (it's as bad as the new Oracle policy for Solaris...) - just to let you know, Debian runs a dream on PA-RISC hardware thanks to the folks at ESIEE, if you ever need a backup OS. :)

It does for now (5.0) but for 6.0 hppa is dropped :(

Just FYI: Debian 6.0 (aka Squeeze) was released a week ago, on Feb. 6, 2011. But Debian 5.0 (aka Lenny) is still available.


Just FYI again: one has to be more subtle in saying that "support was dropped" - HPPA is still very alive in debian. The point is just that because of lack of dedicated developers, they have removed HPPA from the "release architecture" list, which basically means that even though HPPA will be still built as before, any bug or problem in that architecture will no longer be considered "release critical".

See also: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-an ... 00008.html

But... like I said before... if you buy a huge 18-wheeler Kenworth truck capable of pulling 80 tons of load... why would you put a 14 year old behind the wheel, and never get out of first gear? Use HPUX dammit! :P

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R-ten-K wrote:
Alver wrote:
But... like I said before... if you buy a huge 18-wheeler Kenworth truck capable of pulling 80 tons of load... why would you put a 14 year old behind the wheel, and never get out of first gear? Use HPUX dammit! :P


I am trying to compute how that analogy is supposed to work, but I keep throwing an exception... :P Compared to modern processors, those PA chips are more like an old pick up truck trying to keep up with the commodity Kenworth truck ;-)

Sure... I wasn't talking about just this C8000 really, more about big iron in general. You really wouldn't want to run Linux on a modern Superdome 2 either. :) Also, to keep the analogy alive... an old pickup truck being driven by a trucker will STILL be better than driven by a toddler :D

Quote:
Linux in HP-PA works fine as long as you keep yourself to one PA-8800 or PA-8900 chips in your C8000. Apparently, there are no developers with access to multichip C8000s or PA Superdomes, so the main issue with Linux in this architecture is that the algorithm for SMP coherency is rather "brute force" and since the latest PAs had very large L2s (32MB and 64MB respectively) things like cache flushes can induce some serious overhead.

HP-UX is a pretty plain Sys V OS, however some of the stuff which makes it "interesting" comes in the form of add ons which require pretty penny licenses. So for people who want to have a much "nicer" experience with a Sys V, I'd recommend Solaris. But if you have access to the media, and maybe some of the layered products, HP-UX will support the HW much better than Linux obviously. HP-UX is rock solid albeit a tad old. Basically it really is a "no-frills" Unix, so probably not that "exciting" for the enthusiast. It's a pity because I thought a lot of the cool stuff from Tru64 (esp. the cluster technology) would have made it over to HP-UX. Alas...

Well, at least the Tru64 I/O stack made it into HPUX. 11.31 is a fuckton better for I/O handling than the earlier versions :)

Quote:
The thing that annoyed me the most about HP-UX is that 3rd party products (esp. open source packages) are installed in individual subdirectories in /opt. I can see the original intention, but after you install a GNU tool chain for example, you end up with tens (if not well over a hundred) subdirectories under /opt which you need to add to the PATH. Ugh.

True, true. You can always use pkgsrc on UX though, which doesn't have this problem - shameless plug: I posted an article on pkgsrc/UX on my site: http://vanalboom.org/node/17 . :)

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It's been a while since I last did some IRIX development, so I fired up the ol' O2 and did a nekosync && update for good measure. Boy, did stuff break... files with bad ownership, causing new users to be created on my system; missing files; binaries linking to obvious build paths in someone's home dir rather than /usr/nekoware; missing dependencies; ...

There's good howtos on creating clean nekoware packages, but it seems they're often forgotten :P please people, if you dump a tardist in neko's beta ftp, make sure you have installed and tested it on a clean machine - not your regular development box, or at least make sure your dev structure won't interfere. We may need a way to flag bad packages quicker too before more victims are made.

Now to undo this mess before I can start building something... 8-)

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thunng8 wrote:
I'm the proud owner of a used, but great condition HP c8000.

Specs:
- Dual Core 1.1Ghz PA-8900
- 6GB RAM
- 2x73GB 10k SCSI HDD
- FireGL X3 256mb graphics card
- DVD-Writer

a few Q:
- it doesn't seem to have an audio card, do I need to buy one? Will only the official HP one work or are there cheaper alternatives?
- it didn't came with a pedestal stand, but already seems stable without one. I'm guessing I won't need to buy one. Is that correct?

Will try to load the operating system this weekend :)


Nice machine!

My two C8000s have audio cards. There are two versions of this card - one that has 'stereo out' (part number AB620A) , and one that has 'headphone out' (part number AB620-60503). Stereo out means you still need to feed it to an amplifier to get anything out of it... guess which of the two I have :roll: but regardless, sound on UX is not that important. The UX tools for audio are terrible, and afaik SDL is the only open source sound library that is supposed to work.

The pedestal is optional - it's just a plastic foot you click on to the tower. It does look pretty though. :)

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edikat wrote:
But I urgently needed cheap CPU power (and plenty of it) for a lot of computation I need to do with XML (on an UltraSPARC IIIi 1.06GHZ Blade 1500 it's taking 4.5 hours to process one command line XML program written in php).


The real question is... why on earth do you do that in *PHP*? I can't think of any language I'd prefer *less* for doing that :)

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Back on-topic:

Ada.

It's not the most common or versatile language (I don't see anyone writing games in it) but by Jove, it is great at what it does. Mainly aimed at multithreaded real-time applications. Brilliant stuff.

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Can't believe I actually missed this thread; silly to resurrect it like this, but... has anyone got proper/clear instructions on how to overclock an r12k 300MHz to 350MHz in an O2? I'm reading a multiplier needs to be set at 3.5 from a stock 3.0, but $random_deity knows were or how... :)

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Oy... so close :shock: I'm seriously tempted.
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BetXen wrote: I'd like to pick it up, but my wife would kill me.


That's the main problem here too :D also, I don't think it'd fit in my stationwagon... and it's a 5 hour drive... and I have no place to put it... I guess I'll have to pass *sigh*.
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Apart from that, MPE/iX isn't really the system you would *want* to run at home, I think... I honestly can't think of a single proper use for it :) if someone does, do tell.

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Also still interested in this. My O2 already is a 300MHz, so 50 extra wouldn't kill it... but I don't want to risk blowing it up for lack of proper instructions. :)

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You don't know what you have 'til it's... suffering from a network breakdown. Glad everything is back up :D
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Hah! Brilliant. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Also, please don't feed the Kira. She bites.

Yes. Yes, she does.

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zmttoxics wrote:
Kira wrote:
pentium wrote:
Also, please don't feed the Kira. She bites.

Rude.
Also, only on special occasions.

When there is food on the table?

A lot of things qualify as "food". If it can be digested, surely one might call it food... regardless of whether it still lives or not. :D

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Brilliant how the content of this thread about IRC drifts away from the topic equally fast as the IRC channel itself does :D

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GeneratriX wrote:
I'm sure at some point some crazy scientist will come with 2 Kilograms frogs including an altered DNA!


Image

bon appetit... :)

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I guess people will find it weird to find different types in the list, but what the heck :) Also in no particular order.

    - Arch Enemy - Tyrants of the Rising Sun. Brilliant live set of one of the best death metal bands around now.
    - Portishead - Roseland NYC Live. Beth Gibbons is a goddess...
    - Pink Floyd - Echoes. Got my dad to blame for this one... :)
    - Obituary - Dead. Best. Show. Ever. I'd give my left testicle to have been there. :D
    - Vivaldi - Four Seasons, with Nigel Kennedy on solo violin.
    - Esoteric - The Maniacal Vale. If you're into (very) dark (very) psychedelic (very) heavy doom metal, check them out.
    - Massive Attack vs. The Mad Professor - No Protection.
    - Giacinto Scelsi - Uaxuctum! The version by the Kraków Radio-Television Orchestra, with Jürg Wyttenbach conducting. For those who love "modern" classical music... this is a masterpiece :)
    - Ministry - Psalm 69.

But there's so many more... :)

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There's plenty HP9000s that use IDE for cd/dvd too - and those will also take just about anything. But those may not suit your idea of "older" HP9000 then. :)

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ilukeberry wrote:
Interview with HP CEO Meg Whitman.

http://allthingsd.com/20120605/hewlett- ... ot-to-say/

Quote:
The reason we went to the mat with Oracle on this was because we have a lot of customers on Oracle Itanium who do not want to switch, do not want to get off of HP Unix and on to something else. And they kinda like what they have and they'd like to stick with it. I think either way, Dave's got in the works the next generation of Business Critical Servers on a more open platform. It's called Odyssey, which is pretty cool. Ultimately we’ve got to build Unix on a Xeon chip, and so we will do that.


http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/feat ... 623014.pdf <-- also interesting...

Okay, I kind of work for HP, and there was a massive facepalm when reading this very misleading article with wrong conclusions.

Just to set things straight...

There will be no HPUX on x86. Never. Ever.

The port was started in the labs many years back, and it got up to a state where you could actually boot it. But it was killed, and for a few good reasons:
- Customers don't trust x86. Really, they don't. x86 is nice as an entry-level commodity platform, but that's it. Yes, Xeon has been incorporating many of the resilience features of Itanium by now, but there still are a lot of them that simply don't exist on x86. And it's not only the CPU, it's also the machine itself - chipsets, IO, you name it.
- x86 can't handle the load anyway. It only scales up to four sockets, and even then. Cache snooping is bad.
- It would cost many millions of dollars to make the port production-ready. $100 million, according to the estimates. And we all know how things go with estimates :)
- There will be no ISV support anyway. Why bother spending the above $100 million on an OS that boots, but... there still is no Oracle DB on it? I mean, yes, Oracle killed Itanium support, thereby targeting HPUX. But do you really think Oracle will jump for joy and develop a new port of their DB to a new competing platform? Larry isn't crazy.

So, in short; no, there won't be HPUX on x86. It would be corporate suicide.

The Project Odyssey that Whitman talked about is a project which aims to bring the Integrity line features to x86, as much as possible. Ultimately, we want to have x86 hardware that is as good as the Integrity line in any way, except for the actual CPU chip. And these servers will run Linux (or Windows. But heh. Yeah. Windows.). Unfortunately, for management, the difference between Linux and UNIX is nil. :?

I'll bet my left nut that what Whitman wanted to say was " Ultimately, we've got to build a Unix-class system on a Xeon chip" . Not HPUX. A Linux, but Unix-class for reliability and performance. HPUX will continue to run on Itanium, and contrary to Oracle claims, that chip is pretty damn good and not nearly EOL yet. And if at some point in the future customers do pull the plug on their UXes because of upgrade paths for eg. Oracle, the Odyssey machines should be there to take over. If the interviewers at allthingshd would have bothered to even check the stuff they're writing on, they would have known this, and I wouldn't have to spend my time explaining customers (and nekochan :P ) that some misinformed dimwit misinterpreted a CEO's somewhat-too-fuzzy talk on a delicate subject.

Sorry to spoil the fun - I would have loved to play with UX on x86, at least as much as anyone here. But it's not going to happen.

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uridium wrote:
If I'm reading the Oracun disclosure case info's correctly, it appears that there "was" a project that got HP-UX to IPL on x86 to a rudimentary userland level and it was cancelled prior to staff being for the high-jump and everything moving to India.

Yup. But being able to IPL is still a long way (and a fuckton of money) off from being production ready. No surprise it was cancelled...

Quote:
I'd kill to see VMS on x86 (Purely to save it.. because I don't see them ever bringing back the VAX).

Yeah, don't count on that either. You can run VMS in emulators easily, though, so at least it's not entirely doomed for hobbyists. I have three SIMH emulated VAXen running in a cluster, just for fun. And the new hobbyist program works *really* well, they even distribute pretty damn recent media kits electronically (for free!) :)

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You can still get Itanium easily. Powerful enough to do proper work on, too :)

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ClassicHasClass wrote:
FireGL support I'm pretty sure is only on TCOE/MTOE, not basic MCOE (it will work, but it will complain about "unoptimized graphics" or some such). But the GTCE has those drivers.

I have the same T2 card in the same C8000, and it works just fine with MCOE. Just make sure you install the Graphical bundles. :)

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I have a zx6000 and it's amazingly quiet - almost inaudible. Granted, I don't push much load on it :) and since it's basically an rx2600-with-agp-cage, it runs VMS just fine, as long as you keep an eye on the graphics.

They're not that easy to find though. I had to ship mine from Ireland. Thing arrived in a pretty sorry state, but luckily everything was still working.

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You don't need anything special. I used to boot my laptop's Windows XP partition both directly and in VMware from Linux (yes, this is possible).

- Make sure you have installed all drivers for virtual hardware (you may have to install it directly from the .inf files, since installers detect that they're not running on the actual hardware - VMware does this, e.g.)
- Create a second hardware profile in Windows, and tell it to prompt for the proper profile everytime it boots

When you boot virtualized, select the new "virtual" profile you created. It'll take a while to configure all drivers the first time. After that... walk in the park. :)

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I assume the reason behind the question was: "will platforms that have CDE now benefit from the changes made by the open source community that manages it now".

The answer there would probably be "yes", since it's not GPL. But I'm not an expert in license law. :)
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... holy crap. This is bad. :|

Don't know what happened, but even if it's true and you have to get rid of everything, don't let it be *everything*. Keep at least one (small? is that even possible for such a collection?) toy that you hold dear.

I can't afford sending a container across the Atlantic, otherwise I'd gladly offer to store your stuff in my garage until I'm 100% sure you want it gone. :)
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Well, I do that too. I also set a fixed width on websites. Sue me :)

Creating a website that scales all the way from iPad1 territory (1024xwhat? 650?) up to the current 2536xsomething monitors is a lot of work, and in the end it'll still look ugly unless you create all your pixmaps in a load of different resolutions. Cost/gain, people.

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Architect at yet another one-of-the-greatest IT firms in the world (even after firing 28,000 people *cough*). Yes, we have a couple of architectures and a plethora of OSes. :D

Mainly doing datacenter revamps & migrations.

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hamei wrote:
Quote:
Cost/gain, people.

Ja, it's all about the money, right ? That's the new Ultimate Ground of Being. Quality ? Pride in workmanship ? Fuck that crap, I got my thirty pieces of silver, that's what counts !

I'm so glad I grew up in a different time.

Who's talking about money ? No one but you :)

It costs me a fuckton of extra code, testing, etc, etc... while I gain what? The approval of those few people who insist on a) running websites fullscreen on a huge monitor while b) bitching that it doesn't scale to said monitor? Seriously, not worth it :D Most of the stuff I make has pictures. Pictures are sized in pixels. Unless you prefer having those pictures dynamically blown up to proportions where you get the eighties block-effect, it just doesn't scale nicely.

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SVG *is* quite nice... it's just virtually unsupported by browsers. Some implement it partially, some don't implement it at all. All in all, not something you can use for a site that is supposed to be actually visited by people. :)

Hamei: is that a real dog or a stuffed animal? I would suspect the former, but if it is... tee hee, cute :D

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Hamei: not to toot my (our?) own horn, but I'm board / techie core team member at a non-profit VPS hosting community, located in the Netherlands. Members of the community can get a VPS on our shared platform. Membership + basic VPS (two vCPUs, half a gig memory, 50GB disk, 1 static v4 IP in our netblock, 1 /60 IPv6 subnet in our netblock, FUP bandwidth usage) comes at €10 a month.

It has pros and cons since we're obviously not a for-profit company, and we cannot offer SLA's either. Our site is at https://soleus.nu - some content is in dutch, but at least most administrative info is in english (and we all speak/write english if necessary ;) ). You know where to find me if you want to find out more. :)

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pjahn wrote:
What would you do with it/install on it? Or is it ready for disposal? HP-UX is not an option because of the incompatible graphics card.


You must have very strange graphics in that if UX doesn't take em. Non HP parts, I guess?

I have a dual boot OpenVMS/HP-UX on my zx6000. I put in a PCI radeon 7000 because the standard card - an Ati FireGL something - was very unsupported in VMS. The 7000 works fine for both. :)

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Ah, true - I forgot about the RedHat 2.1 bundle. Right, you can forget about getting that to work in nonlinux then... :)

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I've been using raid5 for 'disposable' data (can be recovered from the 'net, but takes time and effort) and raid10 for 'private' data.

jsloan wrote:
Do not use raid5 for any purpose whatsoever.
Drives are too big to survive a rebuild these days. raid5 is useless, and beyond 4TB drives, raid6 is getting close as well...

The raid5 failed twice, and it's been able to recover both times. 3TB drives. No issue whatsoever. I did make sure not to put any load on the machine while rebuilding though. 90%+ capacity available for the rebuild, otherwise it'll be hell. :D

But... yep, once you go beyond 4 drives, a raid6 starts to sound more interesting :)

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Clico Fantastico wrote:
I purchased HP c8000 with 1 GHz cpu, 4 GB RAM and 2 x 73 GB HDD for ridiculously low price, but after playing a bit with it, I realized it came with Nvidia GeForce 4 MX card, which of course isn't supported under HP-UX, so I was only able to run text console and the machine has been collecting dust since then. Proper FireGL cards are quite rare and relatively expensive, but it looks like regular Radeons (8xxx, 9xxx) might work too. That is what I deduct from pieces of information collected from the Internet. If I had such card at hand, I would just put it into the machine and see, but since I don't have any AGP Radeon, could anybody confirm if it works ? I don't care about 3D acceleration, just ability to run X will do. I would like to know, just before I spend that 10 Eur on it :D .


Radeon 7000 and 7500 will work on IA64, so support is likely to be present in PA as well. Can't say I checked though. Other chips? Doubt it. Even the "old" radeon 7000 had to be a specific version before VMS accepted it, so chances are that UX requires a HP firmware bit as well.

But... AGP cards for PA (FireGL T2, X1, X3) aren't that hard to find. Mine both came with T2 standard, and I've seen X* pop up quite frequently as well.

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Always fun, enthousiasm meeting the Hamei-wall. :mrgreen:

He has a point though, beneath the rabies foam-of-the-mouth. I'm not impressed either - opensourcing Solaris was the dumbest thing Sun did in ages, losing them heaps of credibility in those areas they depended on to make money. Sure, it has one or two fun features, but... who will use them, other than the seven developers and their mom?

edikat wrote: But... Dtrace is so cool (especially some of the scripting). ZFS and snapshots are fantastique and Containers are just great... he does have a point.... afaik Linux doesn't have Dtrace (only some BSD) nor ZFS... dunno about Containers.... and Windoze has f*** all of anything useful.

You cannot fault the technologies! :cry:

ZFS is cool, and yet it doesn't offer anything at all that I can't do with other tools and solutions, even if they're less of a masturbatory buzzword than ZFS. Containers is something you can do in pretty much all linux/unix operating systems. KVM *is* linux technology, and I'm not even going to comment on the "cloud" thing. :roll:

But whoa, Linux doesn't have dtrace! I bet people will care about that.

...

Oh, wait, no, they don't. They also have other tools, and they don't miss those few specific oddities much. :mrgreen:
Really, the only *real* reason I can see to use an OSS Solaris derivative is the proper UNIX kernel, and that's at the same time the weakest part... fuck all hardware support, and not exactly stable either, as Regan said before.
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smj wrote:
Alver wrote: ZFS is cool, and yet it doesn't offer anything at all that I can't do with other tools and solutions, even if they're less of a masturbatory buzzword than ZFS.

Would you mind going into a little more detail about other solutions that meet/exceed the hype ZFS has around ensuring data integrity? That was one of the reasons I went with it... Thanks.

The difference between ZFS and the rest of the world is that ZFS does everything itself, while the rest of the world tends to split tasks up. Linux MD has data verification routines to constantly check data integrity on softraid arrays, but this isn't "realtime" - it's a separate process, using unused IO capacity to keep the data sane. Since 2.6.27 there's DIX/DIF in the linux kernel, offering filesystems a set of options to enforce data integrity (which is real-time then).

But once you go beyond the local disks in the machine - I don't see many local disks in machines anymore, except (sometimes) for OS - this kind of stuff tends to be pushed to the SAN... and those have data deduplication, CRC on block content, raid, hotspares, you name it.
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