SGI: Hardware

I understand and sympathize with the motivation behind this - I really do. Just... I wouldn't get your hopes up.

For the past efforts: By 2003 SGI was committed to Altix/Prism/VW xx 0, and Windows or Linux, as the core product set. Ignoring Windows, I can understand how it would make sense to extract things that were unencumbered and could be useful to differentiate these platforms/systems. And part of the marketing around Linux was participating broadly in FOSS, so opening up the parts you were working on actively made some sense. XFS is a great example because that gave them a useful differentiator and selling point, but they weren't cutting their own throats by exposing most of it, since their competitors already had alternatives. As for 4Dwm and other workstation bits, they were committed to Windows on the one hand, and I guess they decided they didn't want to deal with having to support it on Linux on the other, so it didn't happen.

These days Rackable/SGI does nothing with IRIX, and they're not about to start doing anything with IRIX again. The question at this point is, what motivation do they have to reassign busy engineers and pay them to go back, relearn the code base, separate out the interesting and unencumbered bits that they didn't already pull out in previous efforts, package each component or subsystem up, explain to the lawyers why they should give it away for free, convince more lawyers they won't get sued by somebody looking to make a quick buck, and then actually release the stuff?

I'm not saying don't do it - heck, I signed one or two petitions around this in the past. Just don't be too shocked if the response from Rackable/SGI is ... underwhelming.

Don't misunderstand - I'm not specifically encouraging a petition, rather, its not conducive to do any form of emulation of SGI computers, so the best chance is to get the source released, although as previously stated that's nigh impossible it seems.

thinking of what happened to advfs i'd hate to see anything irix related suffering the same fate. the linux kiddies seem to lack any kind of esteem and responsibility so either they can manage to get it into proper hands or better keep it locked up otherwise

TeamBlackFox wrote: Sure, but the XSGI, Magic Desktop, 4DWM etc isn't even PART of System V R4, furthermore they should be able to release any non-original SVR4 code. Sounds like poppycock to me as at the time of that letter, 2003, IRIX was still being developed. And now, with Rackable continuing to ignore the original SGI legacy mostly, it makes sense that they've no more commercial interest in these things.

Nicknames redacted to protect sources, but this is a snippet from a conversation that I had with someone back on 20110312 on IRC about SGI and open-sourcing:

I actually found the email CEO of the new SGI/Rackable Systems: ##removed##

Maybe the right person can light a fire under his arse, preferably a customer with an active contract, to do SOMETHING, like I dunno, offer a hobbyist license program for IRIX in the vein of the VMS one, or something.

TeamBlackFox wrote: I actually found the email CEO of the new SGI/Rackable Systems: [email protected] ...

Maybe the right person can light a fire under his arse, preferably a customer with an active contract, to do SOMETHING, like I dunno, offer a hobbyist license program for IRIX in the vein of the VMS one, or something.

CEOs are up there ::points WAY up in the sky::, and little hobbyists like us are down here. In fact, we're so far apart, I have to assume that CEOs don't breathe oxygen. Instead, they absorb cosmic rays and gamma rays as their source of energy. Ergo, attempts to e-mail them will simply mean the secretary reads it and puts it in the trash, it automatically goes to the spam folder, or skips the spam and goes straight to /dev/null.

IOW, emailing the guy ain't going to work. Especially if it has anything to do with IRIX source code. Likely, SGI has similar problems that Sun had when they prepped the Solaris code for open-source under the CDDL. And if certain sections of IRIX are copyrighted by eneties that no longer exist and ownership chains can't be traced to active entities, then they're stuck. If you've never heard of a cheap 1980's movie named "Monster Squad", they had the same problem. After the movie was made, the original studio got split apart into three entities, each owning a piece of the original copyright. It took until 2006 to re-acquire all three pieces so the film could be re-mastered and put onto DVD. An OS kernel is going to be a lot harder.

What you might have luck getting is hardware documentation. That's what I'd sacrifice someone's soul for: documentation. Especially anything on the R14k/R16k, HEART, XBow, etc. Hopefully, over time, those documents will leak out and Google's spider will find and cache them. Until then....I wait.

TeamBlackFox wrote: I actually found the email CEO of the new SGI/Rackable Systems: [email protected] .....

What do you want with the Irix source? We are not able to port a current firefox version to Irix , do you really think we have the skills to do serious kernel hacking? The open source community folks have the skills but I am sure this will end in another Linux distribution. I am very happy that we don't have a systemd discussion at this place.

foetz wrote: the linux kiddies seem to lack any kind of esteem and responsibility so either they can manage to get it into proper hands or better keep it locked up otherwise

diegel wrote: The open source community folks have the skills but I am sure this will end in another Linux distribution. I am very happy that we don't have a systemd discussion at this place.

IRIX correlates more with *BSD than with Linux. So I expect *BSD folks to take over this. And there is nothing to afraid then, as they know how to do sane quality things.

alexott wrote: IRIX correlates more with *BSD than with Linux. So I expect *BSD folks to take over this. And there is nothing to afraid then, as they know how to do sane quality things.

Irix is Unix System Vr4 and that was the opposite of BSD in the past.

diegel wrote: do you really think we have the skills to do serious kernel hacking?

some of the guys here could do that but for what? better usb support? a better mplayer?
it's not that any serious software is gonna hit the irix market again

alexott wrote: IRIX correlates more with *BSD than with Linux. So I expect *BSD folks to take over this.

as diegel said already irix is an svr4 derivate hence not bsd related despite having a few bsd based programs (as all do). the important point however is what would happen then? thinking of what happened in similar cases in the past parts are likely gonna be stripped out and more or less silently merged into existing linux versions as happened to xfs or chkconfig.

that wouldn't make any serious difference tho because the main problem is somwehere else: for as long as there's no professional segment for desktop machines again the toys and bling bling brainfarts will always have the upper hand and wasting parts of irix for that - no thanks

Someone mentioned The Monster Squad so I've been summoned to say that movie is excellent and everyone should watch it.

Also, contacting the CEO might not work, but I seriously doubt it would hurt to try.

diegel wrote: What do you want with the Irix source? We are not able to port a current firefox version to Irix , do you really think we have the skills to do serious kernel hacking? The open source community folks have the skills but I am sure this will end in another Linux distribution. I am very happy that we don't have a systemd discussion at this place.

If I had the a port of IRIX to x86, I would have it under KVM on SmartOS in a heartbeat. I like IRIX that much that I would be willing to use it, no matter its completeness, on a modern system. Frankly as much as I dislike x86 these days, I don't have a choice for modern shit.

alexott wrote: IRIX correlates more with *BSD than with Linux. So I expect *BSD folks to take over this. And there is nothing to afraid then, as they know how to do sane quality things.

A lot of fans of IRIX are now in the BSD communities. Frankly, I use Linux, and I fail to see how Linux has anything to do with system V. I think at the end of the day the illumos or BSD guys are more likely to be interested than Linux users, with Kumba and other Gentoo-MIPS devs a glaring exception.

foetz wrote: as diegel said already irix is an svr4 derivate hence not bsd related despite having a few bsd based programs (as all do). the important point however is what would happen then? thinking of what happened in similar cases in the past parts are likely gonna be stripped out and more or less silently merged into existing linux versions as happened to xfs or chkconfig.

that wouldn't make any serious difference tho because the main problem is somwehere else: for as long as there's no professional segment for desktop machines again the toys and bling bling brainfarts will always have the upper hand and wasting parts of irix for that - no thanks

While I agree with you on the professional workstation market being a figment of the past, I disagree. GNU/Linux users especially seem to hate the commercial UNIXes especially, the only ones interested in IRIX being open sourced are the BSD and illumos communities, outside of those here.


In any case, I did not share Jorge's email to beg for the source to be released - rather, because I'm desperate to see IRIX be legal for free distribution of some kind. I hate this sneaky shit I have to go through - whenever I see a post by a member wanting a set of IRIX disks, I have to be quick to PM and reach out to them so I can get them the media. Besides torrent sites ( which are full of non-interested parties ) there's nowhere we can discuss this in the open - it isn't good for us, or Rackable. And frankly, releasing the IRIX source is more likely than to get a working SGI system emulator anytime soon - which speaks volumes about the likelihood of the latter.

It is a shame that at the very least that they don't just make IRIX ISO's available with absolutely no warranty expressed or implied. Just give you a link to the media and leave you to get on with it. That would be a huge help.

TeamBlackFox wrote: the only ones interested in IRIX being open sourced are the BSD and illumos communities, outside of those here.

it doesn't matter, having some irix parts merged into bsd or illumos or whatever else is just the same as having it as part of some linux. the point is that irix would get cannibalized and that's not something i'd wanna see. neither an x86 port.

foetz wrote: it doesn't matter, having some irix parts merged into bsd or illumos or whatever else is just the same as having it as part of some linux. the point is that irix would get cannibalized and that's not something i'd wanna see. neither an x86 port.

Are you sure there is a lot of interesting stuff left buried in closed IRIX, which these communities need for the their operating systems? And even they take these parts, what's wrong with that? They will have all required notes and copyrights on them. And IRIX will be remembered in history for ages.

BTW illumos is an once-opened Solaris continuation. So if give an optimistic look at things, open source IRIX may evolve in similar manner.

alexott wrote: Are you sure there is a lot of interesting stuff left buried in closed IRIX, which these communities need for the their operating systems?

i'm not. and if not what's the point in an opensource irix then?

And even they take these parts, what's wrong with that?

technically nothing, this is a question of attitude

And IRIX will be remembered in history for ages.

oh really? guess how many linux users know where xfs came from
irix has its place in history anyway

BTW illumos is an once-opened Solaris continuation. So if give an optimistic look at things, open source IRIX may evolve in similar manner.

i'm aware of illumos but whether that's an actual improvement over the original solaris is very much up for discussion

It is an interesting point that the most likely outcome of making the IRIX source available isn't an IRIX revival, but the appropriation of a handful of components into the Linux ecosystem. The philosophy of the GNU and Linux developer communities overall (and, consequently, a large part of the open-source community as a whole) has always been "embrace, extend, ASSIMILATE!" and I don't doubt that's mostly what we'd see here, if it came to pass. It's only to be expected when you make your software also an ideology.

But that doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a good thing to have it available.

commodorejohn wrote: It is an interesting point that the most likely outcome of making the IRIX source available isn't an IRIX revival, but the appropriation of a handful of components into the Linux ecosystem. The philosophy of the GNU and Linux developer communities overall (and, consequently, a large part of the open-source community as a whole) has always been "embrace, extend, ASSIMILATE!" and I don't doubt that's mostly what we'd see here, if it came to pass. It's only to be expected when you make your software also an ideology.

But that doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a good thing to have it available.

going by your text it seems you have mixed feelings at best about the whole opensource stuff so what would be the benefit of having the irix source?

The fact that someone could make constructive use of it. Whether or not someone will is all academic if they can't .

commodorejohn wrote: The fact that someone could make constructive use of it. Whether or not someone will is all academic if they can't .

fair point. i'm just afraid that the chances of being violated are much higher