SGI: Video

Just wondering how the O2 (AV-1) video quality would compare to a Miro (Pinnacle) DC-30 board on a wintel machine, specifically image quality during capture and printing to tape. I used to use the DC-30 with Premier 5.0 and was reasonally satisfied with the performance and quality for what I was using it for. Below is a comparison of the my old wintel system and my O2 that I dont have setup yet. Can anyone provide their opinion on how the two machines may compare in performance? Just wondering if I sould look at upgrading to the digital video option.

Miro DC-30 Machine
Win NT4.0, SP2
Dual P2 350mhz
512 mb ram
single IDE hard drive UDMA-66 (6 gig)


O2 R10000 250MHZ
512mb RAM
AV Option (AV-1 analog)
18 gig 10K RPM drive
(6) SGI 4 gig external disk array - Raid 0 for video

i remember wondering about the o2's video capabilities when i first got it...

it looks so sexy, was made for video and your fingers are itching to see what gives...

i guess every new o2 owner wants some quick/rough comparison between the o2 and a mac or pc or whatever but its meaningless

o2s were being used for video work by some broadcasters/posthouses etc but that's where it ends...

(o2 was not made for the average off the self mumbojumbo hw/sw)

bjames wrote: Just wondering how the O2 (AV-1) video quality would compare to a Miro (Pinnacle) DC-30 board on a wintel machine, specifically image quality during capture and printing to tape...

(i've never used a pc set up/pinnacle hw myself) i did some quick+dirty captures with the o2's AV-1 and it was fine (as far as s-video goes)

if just want to play around why don't u give the AV-1 a try and see for yourself?

if u want to do some work that matters, leave the o2 where it is and work with a recent mac setup

bjames wrote: ...Just wondering if I sould look at upgrading to the digital video option.

hex!

dig.vid option for the o2 talks SDI which is professional stuff, nothing to do with s-video

unless you already have decent sdi back-end ready to work under irix just don't bother

oh and btw: the true cost of any aqusition device is how much the post costs.

oh and btw2: take a look @ O2 HW Aggregator faq #6 and you'll find a link to C. Pirazzi's Lurker's Guide to Video (reading it is essential)

bjames wrote: Just wondering how the O2 (AV-1) video quality would compare to a Miro (Pinnacle) DC-30 board on a wintel machine, specifically image quality during capture and printing to tape. I used to use the DC-30 with Premier 5.0 and was reasonally satisfied with the performance and quality for what I was using it for. Below is a comparison of the my old wintel system and my O2 that I dont have setup yet. Can anyone provide their opinion on how the two machines may compare in performance? Just wondering if I sould look at upgrading to the digital video option.

Miro DC-30 Machine
Win NT4.0, SP2
Dual P2 350mhz
512 mb ram
single IDE hard drive UDMA-66 (6 gig)

O2 R10000 250MHZ
512mb RAM
AV Option (AV-1 analog)
18 gig 10K RPM drive
(6) SGI 4 gig external disk array - Raid 0 for video

Quality wise, I don't know that one is vastly better than the other. Unless you have a specific need for SDI, I wouldn't upgrade to the digital video option. Even then, I'd rather wait to find a Miranda VIVO.

However, I thought that R10k O2s were bad for video (some clash that was fixed in the R12ks and never a problem in the R5ks, R5.2Ks or R7ks).

Also, should you decide to actually use the O2, I would replace the external array with a single relatively new 18 or 36 gig drive in an external case. Single SCSI drives that will do 35MB/s aren't that hard to come by cheaply.

Isnt that 35mb/sec burst rate? Right now I have 6 of the PG4 SGI stripped as one volumn that will do uncompressed video without dropping a frame aprox 27mb/sec sustained. Becuase I will be working with compressed video, I shouldnt need anything near that data rate. 12mb/sec sustained should be fine using 3 or 4 of the PG4 drives.

I didnt know that the R10K processor had issues with video. Probably best to upgrade to an R12K 300 mhz as the proc is still somewhat inexpensive compared to going with a 400mhz or RM7K with a new mother board.

bjames wrote: ...going with a 400mhz or RM7K with a new mother board.

You don't need a new mainboard. They are all the same (or close enough for horseshoes.)

bjames wrote: Isnt that 35mb/sec burst rate? Right now I have 6 of the PG4 SGI stripped as one volumn that will do uncompressed video without dropping a frame aprox 27mb/sec sustained. Becuase I will be working with compressed video, I shouldnt need anything near that data rate. 12mb/sec sustained should be fine using 3 or 4 of the PG4 drives.

The 35mb/sec was a measured rate, not a manufactors spec for burst rate.

The only thing I have against using compressed is that you only get one video stream. I would like to be able to have multiple video streams going at once. Striping 2 of those disks (I'm sorry, I'd post the model, but it isn't convienient for me to look at the drive in question) on 2 busses is just about perfect for that.

hamei wrote:

bjames wrote: ...going with a 400mhz or RM7K with a new mother board.

You don't need a new mainboard. They are all the same (or close enough for horseshoes.)

I have always thought the RM5200 / RM7000 required a different board than the R10K and R12K. So does this mean I can drop in a RM7000 processor to replace my R10K 200mhz?

jdboyd wrote:

bjames wrote: Isnt that 35mb/sec burst rate? Right now I have 6 of the PG4 SGI stripped as one volumn that will do uncompressed video without dropping a frame aprox 27mb/sec sustained. Becuase I will be working with compressed video, I shouldnt need anything near that data rate. 12mb/sec sustained should be fine using 3 or 4 of the PG4 drives.

The 35mb/sec was a measured rate, not a manufactors spec for burst rate.

The only thing I have against using compressed is that you only get one video stream. I would like to be able to have multiple video streams going at once. Striping 2 of those disks (I'm sorry, I'd post the model, but it isn't convienient for me to look at the drive in question) on 2 busses is just about perfect for that.

Are these 10K or 15K rpm drives? My O2 has a 18gig 10K RPM system drive. I think the PG4 drives are 7200 RPM each.

bjames wrote: Are these 10K or 15K rpm drives? My O2 has a 18gig 10K RPM system drive. I think the PG4 drives are 7200 RPM each.

10,000 RPM. The drives are U160 drives.

i think the o2 analog video is a bit better than the DC30 - used to have both back in the day and did some comparisons. the o2 has quite the edge over the dc30 for the software definitely - it comes with gui and commandline tools that work nicely whereas the dc30 was kinda hacked into premiere, for me never worked reliably and support soon vanished and stayed limited to very few releases. the drawback with the o2 is the slow system itself, encoding times can be enourmous.

just the recommendation to not invest a lot into the system if you are hoping to make it useful. it's just way outdated and doesn't play well with recent tools on other platforms. been there, done that and all. it's been 11 years of technological advance since the o2 video and dc30 were considered prosumer level equipment.

GIJoe wrote: i think the o2 analog video is a bit better than the DC30 - used to have both back in the day and did some comparisons. the o2 has quite the edge over the dc30 for the software definitely - it comes with gui and commandline tools that work nicely whereas the dc30 was kinda hacked into premiere, for me never worked reliably and support soon vanished and stayed limited to very few releases. the drawback with the o2 is the slow system itself, encoding times can be enourmous.

just the recommendation to not invest a lot into the system if you are hoping to make it useful. it's just way outdated and doesn't play well with recent tools on other platforms. been there, done that and all. it's been 11 years of technological advance since the o2 video and dc30 were considered prosumer level equipment.

I have to admit that the only system I have ever regretted selling is my old Miro DC30 / premier 5.0 system. I found it to be a pretty good for what I was using it for. I have a lot of old super 8 film reels that I would like to transfer edit and add soundtrack. Now that I have the O2 with video, premier and six PG4 SGI RAID It got me think, maybe I can use this as my Premier station (replacing the old) - hoping that it will perform at least a good as my old 300mhz P2 system.

it's premiere 4.2 in crash-edition tho, running on the least supported platform. don't expect too much. a mac mini intel with one of these firewire-video converter thingies with analog i/o will probably take a day to edit and encode what your o2 will take a week for.

GIJoe wrote: it's premiere 4.2 in crash-edition tho, running on the least supported platform. don't expect too much. a mac mini intel with one of these firewire-video converter thingies with analog i/o will probably take a day to edit and encode what your o2 will take a week for.

Of course, who says you have to encode on the same machine you edit on?

bjames wrote: So does this mean I can drop in a RM7000 processor to replace my R10K 200mhz?

Yes, but you need a couple of parts. The R10/R12 cpu card sits farther off the mainboard so you need different connectors and maybe standoffs. There's an R-5 350 around here for a tad over a hundred $$ but maybe that's too much ?

Btw, you have an R10k-200 ? or 195 mhz ? People have overclocked the r5 is why I ask ... otherwise, you're liable to get people confused between the r5-200 if you call the 195 mhz r10k cpu a 200.

hamei wrote:

bjames wrote: So does this mean I can drop in a RM7000 processor to replace my R10K 200mhz?

Yes, but you need a couple of parts. The R10/R12 cpu card sits farther off the mainboard so you need different connectors and maybe standoffs. There's an R-5 350 around here for a tad over a hundred $$ but maybe that's too much ?

Btw, you have an R10k-200 ? or 195 mhz ? People have overclocked the r5 is why I ask ... otherwise, you're liable to get people confused between the r5-200 if you call the 195 mhz r10k cpu a 200.

Wait, where is there a R5000 350 for a little over $100?

hamei wrote:

bjames wrote: So does this mean I can drop in a RM7000 processor to replace my R10K 200mhz?

Yes, but you need a couple of parts. The R10/R12 cpu card sits farther off the mainboard so you need different connectors and maybe standoffs. There's an R-5 350 around here for a tad over a hundred $$ but maybe that's too much ?

Btw, you have an R10k-200 ? or 195 mhz ? People have overclocked the r5 is why I ask ... otherwise, you're liable to get people confused between the r5-200 if you call the 195 mhz r10k cpu a 200.

Sorry its an R10K 250 mhz

jdboyd wrote: Of course, who says you have to encode on the same machine you edit on?

the OP seems to plan on doing the whole thing on the o2. even if only used for capture, the MJPEG the o2 spits out can be cumbersome to transfer to another platform and uncompressed footage is a whole other story. e.g. my r12k 270 machine was barely able to playback uncompressed PAL footage (frame sequences) from RAM at 25 fps... editing this in premiere, i'd rather not imagine.

what sense does it make to split the tasks? the analog video is not so unique, really. a decent canopus firewire video box will probably deliver atleast the same quality, go for less than any strange o2 cpu upgrade that won't make a huge difference anyway and spit out a format that modern day apps can actually work with without going through extra steps. ok, enough of the warnings now. there's a plethora of topcis regarding o2 and video here and in the newsgroups. enough to be turned on or away.

I plan on doing everything on the O2. Capture --> Edit ---> print to DVD Recorder or Tape. Any animations or scanned photos would be copied over the network to the O2 or from my Octane. I have no interest in investing anymore $$$ into additional software or PC video compression cards and then trying to get it working in windows. I really liked my WinNT box that had the Miro DC30 & Premier as it was somewhat stable (still suffered some stability issues and limitations) and was fairly easy to use.

GIJoe wrote:

jdboyd wrote: Of course, who says you have to encode on the same machine you edit on?

the OP seems to plan on doing the whole thing on the o2. even if only used for capture, the MJPEG the o2 spits out can be cumbersome to transfer to another platform and uncompressed footage is a whole other story. e.g. my r12k 270 machine was barely able to playback uncompressed PAL footage (frame sequences) from RAM at 25 fps... editing this in premiere, i'd rather not imagine.

what sense does it make to split the tasks? the analog video is not so unique, really. a decent canopus firewire video box will probably deliver atleast the same quality, go for less than any strange o2 cpu upgrade that won't make a huge difference anyway and spit out a format that modern day apps can actually work with without going through extra steps. ok, enough of the warnings now. there's a plethora of topcis regarding o2 and video here and in the newsgroups. enough to be turned on or away.

I guess it depends on what the other platform is. I didn't have any trouble moving MJPEG to FFMPeg, but I guess some people might want to assorted crap on Windows or Mac instead of FFMPeg.

I'd rather not imagine using Premiere on the O2 either. I know it has serious short comings, but I found Movie Maker more usable.

It makes plenty of sense to split encoding off to a server somewhere. Why should you workstation sit busy for two hours instead of you being able to move onto something else at full speed?

Even with a new Mac and said firewire box, it would still make sense to do encoding on a seperate computer. Not that this is all that relevent here since the OP already followed up and said that he wanted to output to a DVD recorder or tape.

So redirecting to bjames, in my opinion you should feel free to use the O2 if you don't want to spend money. Although I still would probably use Movie Maker instead of Premiere. And Premiere isn't exactly going to be wonderfully stable. And I'm not sure that in any way shape or form will Premiere on your O2 be as fast as the dual P3 was.

bjames wrote:

hamei wrote:

bjames wrote: So does this mean I can drop in a RM7000 processor to replace my R10K 200mhz?

Yes, but you need a couple of parts. The R10/R12 cpu card sits farther off the mainboard so you need different connectors and maybe standoffs. There's an R-5 350 around here for a tad over a hundred $$ but maybe that's too much ?

Btw, you have an R10k-200 ? or 195 mhz ? People have overclocked the r5 is why I ask ... otherwise, you're liable to get people confused between the r5-200 if you call the 195 mhz r10k cpu a 200.

Sorry its an R10K 250 mhz

The RM5200/RM7000 have a different CPU design to the R10000/R12000. An RM5200 @ 300MHz is about on a par with a R10k at 195MHz, so don't go "downgrading" your R10k 250MHz. I have a RM7000 at 350MHz, and while there are no official performance figures for O2, I think real world tests show it to be close to an R12000 270MHz, so IMHO it would not be worth the cost of upgrading to that either, given the price of the RM7000, and the motherboard/chassis differences.

Capturing is fine on O2, but the best thing is to then transcode and edit on a fast PC/Mac system. If you really want that extra bit of performance on the O2, the R12000 300MHz is the best price/performance ratio for O2 for you. I don't know prices in US/Canada, but here in Europe R12000-300MHz sell for about 85 euros, and the old CPU you are replacing would be worth about 30 euros. Of course if price is no object, go for the R12000 400MHz (if you can find one), because you get the faster CPU speed upgrade and a 2Mb SCache.