The collected works of bitcpy - Page 2

bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of HP B2600 vs C3700 at Feb. 6, 2013, 9:49 a.m...
I am working out the shipping with the buyer. If the deal goes through I will check into the ZX6000 vs C8000 and see which HP model I will add to the collection.

I agree with some of the postings that there must be a specific piece of software written specifically for some industry that is certified on this particular model. I cant think of a better explanation.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 77 notes
Wrote on the subject of Sparcstation 20 and LCDs at Feb. 6, 2013, 11:15 a.m...
Just wanted to post a follow-up to my issues and say that my SS20 is finally working with my LCD screen!!

And,

I wanted to say THANK YOU Recondas and JpStewart for your input! I purchased the 13W3 Adapter that JPStewart posted the link to and it works!

For anyone else that is plagued with this issue; be aware that not all 13W3 adapters and cables are the same! SGI & SUN are not compatible with eachother and I learned that the hard way.
bitcpy
From Ontario, Canada
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at March 11, 2013, 6:55 p.m...
I have a MaxIMPACT 3 board Graphics set from my Indigo2 for sale. This comes with the 4MB TRAM (Texture RAM) option.

This is the top-of-the-line graphics board for an Indigo machine.

I am not sure what the market value is on these, but, I see 2 of the popular sites have them priced at $800+++.

I am open to any reasonable offers...

http://www.mashek.com/SGIparts/Indigo2.php

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/part ... ml#INDIGO2
bitcpy
From Ontario, Canada
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at March 12, 2013, 8 a.m...
I understand guys... I just tried to do some research before I posted so I could figure out the market value and post a fair asking price. When I saw the prices were so high, I ommitted pricing and just asked for offers.

I figured the real market value would reveal itself through offers.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel at March 12, 2013, 5:54 p.m...
Congrats on the Fuel acquisition!

I recently got one myself and love it. Leaps and bounds ahead of the Indigo2 I started with and a much more usable machine I must say.

While you are getting used to it, keep a null modem cable handy because it will be your best friend.. lol..
bitcpy
From Ontario, Canada
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at March 12, 2013, 6:48 p.m...
I spent alot of time on Ian's site.. Lots of valuable information on there and he has communicated alot of information to me when I've been stuck. He gets 2 thumbs up from me.

Not trying to take business away from Ian.. Just want to sell off my Indigo2 parts and machine at a fair price to another enthusiast.

SAQ wrote: Ian's 655UKP works out to be $40-$80 for the bare boards + the rest for having a guaranteed board in stock when you need it with top tier service and support.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at March 17, 2013, 6:50 a.m...
I just want to provide a little feedback on my own here. There is a difference between enthusiast community (ie. Nekochan) and commercial community (ie. eBay).

Whenever I am buying or selling a Vintage part/machine I always offer to buy or sell through the community in the hopes that other enthusiasts would either have a need for what I want to sell or can make a sale for something they want to get rid of. When I deal with the community the pricing and mentality is much different than the commercial side of things.

I think this is the debate that has been brewing here. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay and this is the mentality I take on the commercial side like eBay. On Nekochan, I offered up the part in the hopes that someone else might want it and wanted to make sure I sold it for a fair price. I usually leave the ads up on the community side for a while and if there is no sale, it goes on eBay with different pricing.

Case in point, the HP B2600 that I saved from being scrapped, I sold on eBay for $2,009. A week prior I was willing to trade that machine for some other parts with another enthusiast but the deal didnt go through.

-----------------------------------------

Thanks for the advice Ian. I appreciate it.

mapesdhs wrote:
PS. bitcpy, I've no idea how much you expected to get for your Max set, but try contacting the various SGI dealers, see what they say (B&B Solutions,
XSNet, MCE, Cordnet, 3D System Sales, etc.) Ya never know. If you can get in the $350+ range then you'd be doing well.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 7:42 a.m...
My Fuel originally came with a V10 graphics card. I managed to track down what I *thought* and what I was *told* was a V12 with DCD. I purchased the card and installed it a few weeks ago. I checked the hinv right away to verify it said V12 and it did. I never gave it another look.

Today I was playing around with IRIX and started looking around at some of the utilities and tools and noticed some discrepancies in the way the graphics hardware is reported. On the HINV it clearly shows V12 as the graphics board as you can see below.

What I didnt notice was that in other places, it reports the EEPROM info as "ASTODYV10" (see top of hinv printout).

But, if I run /usr/gfx/gfxinfo -v, it tells me the board is ODYSSEY Graphics which is what the Tezro version of V12 is supposed to report.

Did I end up with some Hybrid V10/V12 or did someone do an EEPROM upgrade on a V10 and flashed a V12 EEPROM?
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 8:08 a.m...
Uggh.. Now I need to go back to the vendor and see if he was aware of the fake V12 he was peddling or if it was intentional for him to get lower cost V10 and make them look like V12 to get more money for them.

The board did look physically different to my original V10 when I pulled it out. That, and when I powered it up and it said "V12" under graphics board led me to believe I had the real thing.

The only silver lining I can see here, is maybe, using this unique piece of hardware that I managed to uncover, I might be able to help shed some light on HOW this was done and we can add the information to the board.

I dont mind "taking one for the team", if we get something useful out of it. Maybe some others here can benefit from an upgraded V10 -> V12 if we can use what I have to figure out the process.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 8:55 a.m...
I have contacted the vendor that sold me the card and pointed out what I found. I will wait for his reply to see if he was unaware or aware of what he sold me.

If there is anything we could do while I have the card to shed some light on the process mentioned in the thread above, let me know. I would be happy to provide whatever data I can extract.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 9:11 a.m...
I need to get SSHD or some other network connectivity running on my Fuel so I can transfer files back and forth. I will see if I can get SSHD running on it and then post the results.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 12:40 p.m...
Hope this helps...

Code:
NODE (CH)
00 20 01 06 00 00 00 d9
NODE (CIA)
00 02 17 c2 4e 41 c2 4e 41 c1 00 00 00 00 00 84
NODE (BIA)
00 09 00 11 d7 32 c9 53 4f 4c 45 43 54 52 4f 4e
c4 49 50 33 34 c6 4d 4c 41 33 34 39 cc 30 33 30
5f 31 37 30 37 5f 30 30 34 00 c2 5f 43 01 02 c2
30 30 04 00 00 9f b3 04 00 00 00 02 04 00 00 42
e0 c1 00 00 00 00 00 0b
NODE (PIA), no data available (1)
NODE (IUA)
00 03 30 01 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 01 00 0c
0b 45 01 03 00 20 1f 00 01 02 03 4a 00 03 4a 06
50 26 06 3f fc 06 3f b7 06 08 88 06 02 46 06 00
ec 18 00 6b 00 00 00 72
MAC (CH)
00 00 01 03 00 00 00 fc
MAC (CIA)
00 02 17 c2 4e 41 c2 4e 41 c1 00 00 00 00 00 84
MAC (BIA)
00 0b 00 00 00 00 c2 4e 41 cb 4d 41 43 20 41 44
44 52 45 53 53 c6 4e 41 20 20 20 20 cc 4e 41 20
20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 c2 4e 41 01 02 c2
4e 41 04 ff ff ff ff 04 ff ff ff ff 04 ff ff ff
ff cc 30 38 30 30 36 39 31 30 36 33 38 46 00 c1
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 c1
MAC (PIA), no data available (1)
MAC (IUA), no data available (1)
PIMM (CH)
00 20 00 01 00 00 00 df
PIMM (CIA), no data available (1)
PIMM (BIA)
00 07 00 93 3b 43 c9 53 4f 4c 45 43 54 52 4f 4e
c8 49 50 33 34 50 49 4d 4d c6 4e 45 46 32 32 38
cc 30 33 30 5f 31 39 33 32 5f 30 30 31 00 c2 5f
42 01 02 c2 30 30 c1 6a
PIMM (PIA), no data available (1)
PIMM (IUA)
00 01 60 01 00 01 00 04 00 14 00 2e 00 2e 00 3e
00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a
00 3e 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a 00 4a
00 4a 04 44 01 00 00 00 0f 00 01 01 01 70 00 01
70 00 04 03 01 01 20 07 01 00 46 00 46 00 04 03
01 01 20 07 01 00 33 00 33 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7d
XIO (CH)
00 20 00 01 00 00 00 df
XIO (CIA), no data available (1)
XIO (BIA)
00 09 00 6c a7 46 c9 53 4f 4c 45 43 54 52 4f 4e
c9 41 53 54 4f 44 59 56 31 30 c6 4e 4d 5a 32 38
39 cc 30 33 30 5f 31 38 32 36 5f 30 30 33 00 c2
5f 41 01 02 c2 30 30 04 ff ff ff ff 04 ff ff ff
ff 04 ff ff ff ff c1 a1
XIO (PIA), no data available (1)
XIO (IUA)
00 01 33 01 01 01 01 04 01 06 03 00 09 02 0f 01
13 01 16 01 19 01 24 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 03 01
01 20 07 01 05 ff 00 ff 04 42 01 01 00 20 03 00
01 02 01 4f 00 01 4f f4
DIMM 0 (JEDEC-SPD)
80 08 07 0d 0b 02 48 00 04 a0 80 02 82 04 04 01
0e 04 0c 01 02 26 00 00 00 00 00 50 3c 50 30 80
b0 b0 60 60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 95
ce 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 4d 33 20 34 36 4c 32
38 32 30 44 54 32 2d 43 41 30 20 32 44 03 06 0c
10 0e 00 00 57 4d 43 33 42 30 56 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
DIMM 2 (JEDEC-SPD)
80 08 07 0d 0b 02 48 00 04 80 80 02 82 04 04 01
0e 04 0c 01 02 26 00 a0 80 00 00 50 3c 50 32 80
c0 c0 60 60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 b7
7f 7f fe 00 00 00 00 00 4a 43 4d 32 32 30 31 42
20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 32 20 03 06 12
00 10 34 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
DIMM 1 (JEDEC-SPD)
80 08 07 0d 0b 02 48 00 04 a0 80 02 82 04 04 01
0e 04 0c 01 02 26 00 00 00 00 00 50 3c 50 30 80
b0 b0 60 60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 95
ce 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 4d 33 20 34 36 4c 32
38 32 30 44 54 32 2d 43 41 30 20 32 44 03 08 0c
dc 16 00 00 57 4d 42 32 30 30 38 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
DIMM 3 (JEDEC-SPD)
80 08 07 0d 0b 02 48 00 04 80 80 02 82 04 04 01
0e 04 0c 01 02 26 00 a0 80 00 00 50 3c 50 32 80
c0 c0 60 60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 b7
7f 7f fe 00 00 00 00 00 4a 43 4d 32 32 30 31 42
20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 32 20 03 06 12
00 10 1f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 12:50 p.m...
Very interesting thread. I have to think someone *DID* in fact figure this out because I have living proof in my Fuel right now.

I also just double checked my original V10 card and it has the later part # (1826-003). When I power down my Fuel, I will pull my V10/V12 Hybrid out and compare the 2 boards side-by-side front and back.

I will post some High Res shots of both boards so you hardware gurus can see what is what.

Since I do have a late model V10, I would be willing to guinea pig the V10 and see if we can make that work as a V12 also. Once we confirm that, then we know for sure the process works.

I have a feeling alot of cheap V10 are going to be worth some money real soon.. lol..

Should I be scavenging eBay looking for cheap V10 to buy up??

lastly, if the only difference between V10 and V12 is the firmware changes, the performance would be the same between my V10/V12 hybrid and a factory real V12 wouldnt it?

recondas wrote:
The whole story of the change-a-V10-into-a-V12 hack is in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16720976

bitcpy, yours is indeed a *very* interesting post.

Like j-j mentions, the topic was left open ended because no one seemed to have the knowledge needed to successfully modify the firmware so that the extra 96MB of memory present on a 030-1826-00x V10 could be used...... or at least no one admitted to having the knowledge.

If someone has figured it out in order to make a few bucks representing $25 V10s as $250 V12s, wonder when they'll get ambitious enough to try floating an 1826 V10 through a rework station to see if they can shoehorn on 256 or 512MB of memory (since later versions of the IRIX kernel already have the hardware definitions for both).

So if someone has figured out the alchemy needed to make V12s out of V10s, I wonder how many more are out there? If you have a semi recently acquired Fuel or V12 for a Fuel, you might want to take a close look at the part number/description in an hinv -vm.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 12:53 p.m...
One last thought.. Maybe we should merge this new data into the old thread? This way going forward, I can provide whatever input into that original thread and see if we can keep everything in 1 place?
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 3:10 p.m...
Even if that is the case, I believe with the physical card one can reverse engineer what was done to figure out how to modify the next one.

If I pull this "V12" out, and put my V10 back in, and dump the EEPROM again for the stock one, it will show me everything that is different.

The only issue is this "V12" has DCD and my original V10 doesnt.


recondas wrote:
Let's wait until you've got something to report from the person you got it from. If he disavows any knowledge about how that particular feat was accomplished there still won't be a resolution to the original thread.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 20, 2013, 3:35 p.m...
I just had a thought..

When I reconfigured my Fuel to upgrade its processor from 600 to 800Mhz and the RAM from 1GB to 4GB, the PROM gave me alot of trouble before it re-initialized and showed the correct info.

When I swapped out the graphics card, I did go into PROM and ran: update, and then init to reconfigure.

Is it possible HINV is still showing parts of the old catalog when the V10 was in there? Its just really strange that my board is showing half V12 and half V10 information and I am wondering if its a simple explanation rather than a hacked V10??

Would just like to rule this out if someone can confirm proper procedure when swapping hardware in the Fuel.

If this is not hte case, I will pull my Fuel apart and yank the V12 out to have a look at it.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 21, 2013, 5:47 p.m...
These Fuels are very finicky. Geez..

I did what you said and now the machine wont power up at all. Clicking the front button does absolutely nothing.

I put the serial cable back onto the L1 port and I am getting nothing on the console program now.

I tried taking out the mouse, keyboard and Ethernet cable; only power remains plugged in. I pulled the power plug, left it off for 10min and put it back in and still no output on the serial console and the power button on the front does nothing.

Do these machines have battery backups on the board? Can I pull a battery to flush all the contents and reset it back to default?

recondas wrote:
As long as you cleared the POD logs (and the hardware list stored within), you might try rebooting the L1 controller (on the odd chance it wasn't during your recent hardware update).

The L1 is live as long as power is connected to the Fuel. Shut down IRIX and run "reboot_l1" at an L1 Command prompt, or completely disconnect power for a short period. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16726401
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 24, 2013, 8:18 a.m...
I dont know what the trigger was, but, it decided to turn back on.. I think maybe I have a flakey Fuel.. too many strange things happening every time I interact with it.

I am trying to make sure my hardware is working as intended so I was going through the multi monitor configuration.

The V12 Pro w/DCD option, all 3 of the DVI connectors are active and display on my 3 screens. I get a clone being output to each screen.

If I go into display properties, it only allows me to select single resolution or 2@ resolutions to get 2 monitors working.

Does IRIX 6.5.30 w/DCD support all 3 screens active as separate displays so that I can move windows around between the 3 monitors? I was under the assumption that all 3 outputs could be used simultaneously.

hamei wrote:
They certainly can be. Normally I owuld say "Uh-oh, power supply" to this but I once had a graphics card do a very similar thing. Changed out the graphics card and it booted.

When they run, they are great. But when they go goofy, they are exasperating.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 24, 2013, 4:53 p.m...
I was reading that exact section but I didnt see anything in there that said either/or.. or maybe I just glossed over it?

In any case. Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the other topic, the listing is still the same after reboot but I think its because my POD needs to be flushed.. I had this same problem when I put the 800Mhz CPU in. It took a bit of work to get things cleared up. I need to revisit this as soon as I get some time to tinker with it again. I was distracted with trying to make sure the video card was doing what it was supposed to.

recondas wrote:
According to the manual, the base DVI port and the DVI ports on the DCD are an either/or situation (which along with the bandwidth restrictions of the V12, is why you don't find any factory-provided 3@ display formats). http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi ... /ch03.html

As a follow up to the previous subject; if you were able to reboot your L1, was there any change in how your graphics board appeared ineither a "serial all" or hinv -vm?
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 24, 2013, 4:58 p.m...
Yes.. I read it as DCD **ADD ON ** card meaning it would ADD a Dual Channel display to the existing SINGLE display. Then, when I saw the 3 DVI connectors I assumed I made the correct assumption, otherwise, why wouldnt they supply a DCD with only 1 extra DVI connector.

Also, why does the screen clone to all 3 DVI connectors when I am in the O/S ? All 3 ports remain active. My hope was that I could tell the Xserver display to activate all 3 as separate monitors instead of cloning.

When I look at the output of "gfxinfo" it does print: Monitor 0, Monitor 1, Monitor 2

hamei wrote:
Why were you under that assumption ? I have never read anything like that anywhere. It's called a dual channel display because it supports two screens ! :D
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 24, 2013, 8:45 p.m...
I appreciate the input, but, are you sure? lol...

hamei wrote:
Quote:
Also, why does the screen clone to all 3 DVI connectors when I am in the O/S ?


It doesn't, obviously. If it did you would get a display on all three screens.

But you don't. Ergo ...

Attachment:
3screens.jpg
3screens.jpg [ 40.41 KiB | Viewed 44 times ]
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of Fuel V10 and V12 Confusion at March 25, 2013, 5:53 p.m...
Thanks for all the details and input guys! I truly appreciate it. Wealth of knowledge on this site.

When I saw the 3 connectors on the V12 DCD I made some assumptions that I could have all 3 of my displays running as an extended desktop.

For what it's worth, if I switch the mode to 2@, I get 1 monitor that just stays black and the other 2 become active. I wanted to go through this excercise because I wanted to make sure my hardware that I paid for was at least doing what it was supposed to. Now I will revert my attention back to getting to the bottom of the incorrect part # showing up for my V12.

I will do a clearalllogs, initalllogs, flush and reset like i did with the CPU upgrade and see if that clears it.
bitcpy
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
and authored 74 notes
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at March 25, 2013, 5:55 p.m...
Ian,

Your advice was spot on. I listed it on eBay for $349USD. It just sold today.

It is going to a gentleman with 3 IMPACT workstations who has been searching for a MaxIMPACT/TRAM at a good price. He was ecstatic to find mine to bid on.

Thank you!

mapesdhs wrote:
To my eyes, a very good price. ;D

Ian.
bitcpy
From Ontario, Canada
Who joined Dec. 30, 2012, 8:48 a.m.
Wrote on the subject of *** MaxIMPACT Graphics Boards *** at May 15, 2013, 8:12 p.m...
I was suggesting this same thing. That board was definitely working 100% when it was in my Indigo2. After I got it installed in my machine, I know I went through all the apps and Demos on my Indigo and tried them all. I never saw any artifacts on the screen.

The package travelled via ground from Canada to UK. I packed it very well with lots of cushioning, but, it could have jarred something lose.

I hope you can track down the issue.

guardian452 wrote: Good chance it's lifted pins on the tram chips... It's every other line beacuse I believe the system interleaves between tram modules. I have had the same problem (but with black lines instead of red) with my Octane MXI. It may be curable:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16718092