Miscellaneous Operating Systems/Hardware

Since upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie I have found the Linux desktop much more sluggish, both on a Pi (raspbian) and an X86 box (debian).

Both machines were set up with LXDE and openbox. Anyone with a similar setup also noticing real lag when moving windows, worse than before upgrading? I don't recall having to wait several seconds for the title bar to catch up with the pointer. Any thoughts on why this is happening or how to improve things? (any desktop settings worth tweaking or packages to add/remove?)

Of course it may simply be a case of too little CPU "grunt" - Pi's limitations accepted, and the X86 is a Via C3 at 900MHz so a long way short of P4 / dual core performance (it does not even have a full 686 instruction set, so uses the "486" variant of the i386 kernel). If so, perhaps a different wm / desktop would be an easier load - but which? I used to use XFCE (with own wm) and have switched the X86 back to that for now (partly because its logout/shutdown seems neater than LXDE's), but know that I've barely scratched the surface of wm's and desktops.

So, any recommendations for lightweight wm and reasonably user-friendly desktop?

Re sluggishness its probably not the WM, but Systemd. The overhead it adds will slow down your computer. I'd suggest rolling back to Wheezy or else migrating to another distro. There is no reason that a clean OS install/upgrade should be any slower, especially with LXDE.

Re desktop environment, CDE is always an option, and with some tuning you can make it look/operate like 4DWM. Also, Enlightenment is another I've used, very appealing but also lightweight.

TeamBlackFox wrote: Re sluggishness its probably not the WM, but Systemd. The overhead it adds will slow down your computer. I'd suggest rolling back to Wheezy or else migrating to another distro. There is no reason that a clean OS install/upgrade should be any slower, especially with LXDE.

Re desktop environment, CDE is always an option, and with some tuning you can make it look/operate like 4DWM. Also, Enlightenment is another I've used, very appealing but also lightweight.

Thanks, I'll check them out - assuming "sudo aptitude purge systemd" does not have the desired effect

It won't, you're going to break the distro trying to remove it... You can always move to another distro, but I'm sure thats not something you're wanting to do. Gentoo and Slackware currently do not utilise systemd, but thats probably not gonna change. Take it from me - I left GNU/Linux for BSD, not only for systemd, but for other reasons.

TeamBlackFox wrote: It won't, you're going to break the distro trying to remove it... You can always move to another distro, but I'm sure thats not something you're wanting to do. Gentoo and Slackware currently do not utilise systemd, but thats probably not gonna change. Take it from me - I left GNU/Linux for BSD, not only for systemd, but for other reasons.

Debian has experimantal OpenRC support, the sysvinit wrapper deal that Gentoo developed. Not sure on the status of it, though. Personally, I use "file-rc" in my Debian VM and like it quite nicely. It wraps sysvinit, but gives you the convenience of editing a simple text file to change the start/stop order of services, then you just run Debian's update-rc.d script to make the changes active.

That said, as a current Gentoo developer, I can tell you that we're working towards supporting both OpenRC (default) and systemd in our distro. Choice is a big deal in Gentoo, which can sometimes drive people insane :). When the udev/systemd merger was announced, it was a few of our devs that kickstarted the eudev project off to maintain a version of udev that wasn't slaved to systemd. And in a pinch, you can finagle busybox's "mdev" into working well as a udev replacement, too.

TeamBlackFox wrote: Re sluggishness its probably not the WM, but Systemd. The overhead it adds will slow down your computer. I'd suggest rolling back to Wheezy or else migrating to another distro. There is no reason that a clean OS install/upgrade should be any slower, especially with LXDE.

I've got my beef with systemd as well, but systemd the software apparently runs pretty fast. I haven't heard of slowdowns much due to it. Many of its problems seem to stem more from its design choices, such as it replacing your system logger, cron daemon, init system, and a bunch of other stuff. Plus the whole logging to binary formats that really rankles old-school UNIX people. Now, the people behind systemd....yeah, I won't go there. I think their various statements on the public mail archives on the web speaks for itself regarding their attitude. I plan on sticking with OpenRC as long as feasibly possible. If Linux becomes permanently wedded to systemd in the future...well, we'll just have to see if we get there.

TeamBlackFox wrote: Re desktop environment, CDE is always an option, and with some tuning you can make it look/operate like 4DWM.

I tried the 2.2.1 cut of CDE after someone wrote a basic Gentoo ebuild for it. It's got a *lot* of work ahead of it. I heard the 2.2.2 release came out not long ago, so I probably need to try that soon to see what got fixed. But in a nutshell, CDE is its own X server I believe (right now, anyways), and carries its own copies of common X11 tools, many of which were never compiled with gcc and thus, tend to really irk the compiler off which causes build failures. I hope it sees active development, as I found CDE to be quite usable when I had to maintain an HP-UX server once. And I've grown somewhat attached to the Motif look of it.

As for faking the 4DWM look, since that Maxx desktop project appears to be dead, the other option is fvwm. Supposed to be a very highly-configurable X11 WM, and there's at least one IRIX-like theme that I know of for it.

TeamBlackFox wrote: Also, Enlightenment is another I've used, very appealing but also lightweight.

I think you're talking about Enlightenment 0.16. Enlightenment 0.17 and up basically have an entire framework behind them now which is supposed to be pretty good. So maybe not lightweight anymore. Dunno, haven't tried to install 0.17+ yet. Doesn't seem to get as much attention as Gnome or KDE, though :/

TeamBlackFox wrote: It won't, you're going to break the distro trying to remove it...

Hence the ";-)". I'd prefer to stick with jessie, having recently installed it on my parents' ex-XP laptop (figured a few months of "testing" status before going stable would be easier for them than a "dist-upgrade", having had one of those go pear-shaped myself).

TeamBlackFox wrote: You can always move to another distro, but I'm sure thats not something you're wanting to do. Gentoo and Slackware currently do not utilise systemd, but thats probably not gonna change. Take it from me - I left GNU/Linux for BSD, not only for systemd, but for other reasons.

Can't say I tried the full range before settling on Debian; one attraction was the prospect of the same distro on ARM as well as x86 as it seemed to have the most developed RiscPC support ten years ago, and now there's raspbian for the Pi. Ironically I've had more success installing NetBSD on the RiscPC where at least the acorn32 port is still going (nominally at least - not sure how active) whereas the RiscPC branch of debian-arm disappeared several major versions ago (I forget which was the last). But a RiscPC is much better as a RISC OS machine than anything else!

Long way of saying I'm not especially wedded to Debian if there's a better "fit".

Not having full 686 instructions limits things a little among Linuces, and trying to avoid systemd means avoiding Debian-based distros and Arch - so BSD is certainly a contender.

Kumba wrote:

TeamBlackFox wrote: Re desktop environment, CDE is always an option, and with some tuning you can make it look/operate like 4DWM.

I hope it sees active development, as I found CDE to be quite usable when I had to maintain an HP-UX server once. And I've grown somewhat attached to the Motif look of it.
As for faking the 4DWM look, since that Maxx desktop project appears to be dead, the other option is fvwm. Supposed to be a very highly-configurable X11 WM, and there's at least one IRIX-like theme that I know of for it.

TeamBlackFox wrote: Also, Enlightenment is another I've used, very appealing but also lightweight.

I think you're talking about Enlightenment 0.16. Enlightenment 0.17 and up basically have an entire framework behind them now which is supposed to be pretty good.

Thanks for the suggestions. fvwm was already on the shortlist, and I've been meaning to try CDE. Perhaps I should give up standardising and enjoy the variety!

ajw99uk wrote:

TeamBlackFox wrote: It won't, you're going to break the distro trying to remove it...

Hence the ";-)". I'd prefer to stick with jessie, having recently installed it on my parents' ex-XP laptop (figured a few months of "testing" status before going stable would be easier for them than a "dist-upgrade", having had one of those go pear-shaped myself).

TeamBlackFox wrote: You can always move to another distro, but I'm sure thats not something you're wanting to do. Gentoo and Slackware currently do not utilise systemd, but thats probably not gonna change. Take it from me - I left GNU/Linux for BSD, not only for systemd, but for other reasons.

Can't say I tried the full range before settling on Debian; one attraction was the prospect of the same distro on ARM as well as x86 as it seemed to have the most developed RiscPC support ten years ago, and now there's raspbian for the Pi. Ironically I've had more success installing NetBSD on the RiscPC where at least the acorn32 port is still going (nominally at least - not sure how active) whereas the RiscPC branch of debian-arm disappeared several major versions ago (I forget which was the last). But a RiscPC is much better as a RISC OS machine than anything else!

Long way of saying I'm not especially wedded to Debian if there's a better "fit".

Not having full 686 instructions limits things a little among Linuces, and trying to avoid systemd means avoiding Debian-based distros and Arch - so BSD is certainly a contender.

I don't think you have to avoid Debian. systemd is just going to be selected as the default init system upon install. You should be able to replace it with sysvinit after the install is complete. I haven't verified this, but that would seem to fit with Debian's other practices. I know that irritates some, as it's just another step to do after the install (and carries a risk of wasting the time spent doing the install if something buggers up), but it's still better than not having any choice on other distros between init systems.

Kumba wrote: don't think you have to avoid Debian. systemd is just going to be selected as the default init system upon install. You should be able to replace it with sysvinit after the install is complete.

Sounds right. A few weeks ago, a routine 'apt-get update' installed systemd and removed sysvinit from my Debian/testing system. I was not impressed with systemd; things just didn't work right. A simple 'apt-get install sysvinit' re-installed the old system. After that is installed, you need to run 'dpkg-reconfigure init' and purge systemd. (I'm not sure of the order in which those two things need to be done.) You could also choose upstart instead of sysvinit if you prefer.

Anyway, the point is, Debian Jessie certainly allows selecting between systemd, sysvinit, and upstart through the init metapackage. You won't break the whole distro, as somebody suggested...so long as you have the init metapackage and either sysvinit or upstart installed.

On old 20th-century machines, I've sometimes had to revert to Squeeze and kernel 2.6 for good performance, but I doubt you want to do that. For convenience and stability, I think Debian is still probably your best choice. The Red Hat derived distros have a heavier basic configuration and are hard to slim down. The RPM-based package ecosystem is very limited and awkard compared to Debian.

I've tried just about every lightweight window manager out there and found one of the most stable to be IceWM. When users want a Windows-like interface, IceWM is what I give them. It is IMHO the most user-friendly of the light WMs and there is a great range of themes available. For the Windows refugees, I make it look like Vista. It does take a lot more manual configuration than setting up KDE or GNOME.

My taste is for tiling WMs, but the ones I tried were relatively unstable and not particularly lightweight. Since I found I could configure CTWM to look and act pretty much like a tiling WM, it has become my default choice.

Xmonad or DWM were both fairly lightweight back in my linux days (I gave it up cold-turkey in 2007)

systemd: The Choice of a New Generascsi0: ERROR on channel 0, id 0, lun 0, CDB: Write (10) 00 06 1d 3a 0d 00 00 08 00

wenp wrote: On old 20th-century machines, I've sometimes had to revert to Squeeze and kernel 2.6 for good performance, but I doubt you want to do that. For convenience and stability, I think Debian is still probably your best choice. The Red Hat derived distros have a heavier basic configuration and are hard to slim down. The RPM-based package ecosystem is very limited and awkard compared to Debian.

Agreed, yup. That's one of Gentoo's perks, is the ridiculous amount of USE flags lets you customize virtually every package to only the bits you want. It can sometimes be a time-consuming process, though, and that's not something that RedHat can afford, so they have a very shallow amount of configuration. I.e., want a desktop on a server for management? You'll probably get stuck with music and movie applications as a side-effect because of RedHat's dependence on Gnome and the difficulty of configuring Gnome w/o sound support (which might not even be possible anymore).

Even Debian has some odd dependency requirements at times. I think their mysql package requires Hungarian language support because their mysql maintainer is Hungarian. WAY more configurable than RedHat, though.

ClassicHasClass wrote: systemd: The Choice of a New Generascsi0: ERROR on channel 0, id 0, lun 0, CDB: Write (10) 00 06 1d 3a 0d 00 00 08 00

smf works pretty well on Solaris. But then, this is Linux ....

guardian452 wrote: ... (I gave it up cold-turkey in 2007)

You didn't actually give it up since there's nothing to give up .. hence, my suggestion :

Windows XP

or Windows 2000 if you are a rabid anti-DRM zealot like yours truly.

We should face facts : in 2000 A.D. Linux on the Desktop was a nifty idea. Projects under heavy development for every aspect of our computing life. Speedy progress made on all fronts. This will be the Year of Linux on the Desktop !

And then it started snowing on the Grande Armee de Linux ...

Bottom line, there are no applications. After fifteen years the best Linux has to offer is a third-rate copy of a second-rate Windows application that still can't do cmyk. No Irfanview and none in sight.

Office applications : Open Office. Someone better shackle me, if I ever get my hands on those imbeciles there will be blood. What a steaming pile.

Vector graphics : Inkspot. They have managed to change toolkits eleven times but run ? As in, open the application and create graphics ? Maybe some time in the twenty-second century if they run out of toolkits to change to or people eager to "refactor the code."

Desktop publishing ? Scribus ? Please, mother, I'd rather drown.

Video ? unh-hunh. There's at least ten good programs started. It's Open Source, pick up a C++ textbook and make your own !

Scientific ? Well, there's some really nice calculators.

Engineering and manufacturing ? "Under heavy development ! Making incredible progress !" but still not even one decent CAD program. Twenty years but nothing you can use.

Every field you look at, same. It's not 1995 anymore. It's not even 2005 anymore. None of this shit has gone anywhere for fifteen years.

If you want to actually do anything, save yourself a lot of grief. Windows XP. At least it's static, it's not going to get any worse. Or Mac would probably work too, but I don't know enough about that. Maybe try Linux again in the year 2525.

I have FreeBSD and NetBSD as desktops and they work just fine. Since hamei is throwing out Windows as a suggestion, as a BSD fan, I'll throw out mine. NetBSD for the Raspberry Pi and your laptop. It should work out nicely, you'll need to configure the system by hand, but I doubt that will be an issue for you.

TeamBlackFox wrote: ... as a BSD fan, I'll throw out mine.

You're missing the point tho, Team. It's like BeOS ... the operating system can be cool as hell but once you get it running, there's nothing to do with it but drag around windows and pop up awesome transparent terminals. There's no applications.

Fifteen years ago it was, "Under serious development !" but after the first ten, we need to face facts. There aren't any and there aren't going to be any.

For a desktop user, all the non-mainstream systems have turned out to be a huge disappointment. Even the most basic requirements have not been met.

Time to give it up, maybe .....

jpstewart wrote:

Kumba wrote: don't think you have to avoid Debian. systemd is just going to be selected as the default init system upon install. You should be able to replace it with sysvinit after the install is complete.

Sounds right. A few weeks ago, a routine 'apt-get update' installed systemd and removed sysvinit from my Debian/testing system. I was not impressed with systemd; things just didn't work right. A simple 'apt-get install sysvinit' re-installed the old system. After that is installed, you need to run 'dpkg-reconfigure init' and purge systemd. (I'm not sure of the order in which those two things need to be done.) You could also choose upstart instead of sysvinit if you prefer.

Anyway, the point is, Debian Jessie certainly allows selecting between systemd, sysvinit, and upstart through the init metapackage. You won't break the whole distro, as somebody suggested...so long as you have the init metapackage and either sysvinit or upstart installed.

That was going to be my first step, i.e. see how much systemd would take with it when purged and cover the gaps pre-emptively or afterwards, so good to know it should work (unless something I want to keep happens to have a systemd dependency that cannot be substituted). Thanks both for confirming.

wenp wrote: I've tried just about every lightweight window manager out there and found one of the most stable to be IceWM. When users want a Windows-like interface, IceWM is what I give them. It is IMHO the most user-friendly of the light WMs and there is a great range of themes available. For the Windows refugees, I make it look like Vista. It does take a lot more manual configuration than setting up KDE or GNOME.

Thanks for the recommendation, one to add to the list. Don't mind manual config so long as it's in reasonably well documented/commented config files and only has to be done once!

hamei wrote: Windows XP or Windows 2000 if you are a rabid anti-DRM zealot like yours truly.
[... lack of applications for Linux ...]
If you want to actually do anything, save yourself a lot of grief. Windows XP. At least it's static, it's not going to get any worse. Or Mac would probably work too, but I don't know enough about that. Maybe try Linux again in the year 2525.

The x86 is dual-boot XP/Debian, but with only 256MB RAM doesn't exact run it (or at least not it plus any applications). Must investigate th stuff around security updates for embedded XP, or just unplug the ethernet. But not really attractive as a home system - have to use Win7 all day at work.

And it's not really an option for the Pi! (but I have RISC OS for that, with it's own holes in the application range)

hamei wrote: We should face facts : in 2000 A.D. Linux on the Desktop was a nifty idea.

I completely agree with your evaluation of Linux, but I think the OP's case is probably best served by Linux. When I set up an Internet machine for the old folks, I use Debian. It supports just about any random cheap/old hardware and modern browsers, and doesn't require constant vigilance to remain functional in the face of attacks. I fantasize about using OpenBSD in that situation, but the hardware/browser support will never be there.

There were a few times when I said to myself, "Windows can't really be so bad if you know your stuff. I'll just get myself some really thick books on the subject, study hard, and learn how to achieve security and peace of mind on Windows." On the rebound, even Linux looked elegant.